"I don't want to be married. I'm very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership," John says. "The word 'marriage,' I think, puts a lot of people off.Of course, the nasty responses are pouring forth because it is not possible for someone to think this way without hating gays. Oh, wait ... he is gay. Oh, bother!
"You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships."
Rest assured that there will be retribution for many who have views that differ from the anti-Prop 8 crowd. Somehow, that isn't classified as "hate."
14 comments:
The headline should have read, "Elton John hates gays!"
That's what they'd like us to believe. (If you read some of the comments to that story, that's what some of them believe, too.)
Would it matter? Does something become bad policy if the people advocating it ‘hate’ a given group? Or good public policy if the people advocating it have good motives?
I would be willing to argue that the very worst public programs were created with people with the “best” of motives.
I suppose it would only matter if you believe that truth matters.
Missed you there.
I said that (essentially) that the motive of a group trying to pass a law 'does not matter' to the rightness or wrongness'of the law'.
And I said that approving of Prop 8 isn't necessarily motivated by hate. Therefore, we are addressing two different questions, aren't we? You're saying "Prop 8 is right" and I'm saying, "Not only that, but those who claim it is necessarily 'hate' aren't right."
Here's part of my thinking. A kid is given a math problem and comes out with the right answer. That's all that is necessary, right? Well, no. If he went about it the wrong way and fortunately came out with the right answer, he will certainly mess up future math problems. If we put Prop 8 into law because people wish to harm a certain group of people and not because it's simply right, then in the future, when they wish to harm you, it will be acceptable. Or, to put it another way, not sinning is not dependent solely on right outcome, but right motive. Let me put it a way you'll easily agree with. A wife who does what her husband says simply because other people might not like her for not doing it is not being submissive to her husband.
Several comments:
1) I am not necessarily saying Prop 8 is right, but that its rightness or wrongness does not depend on the motive of its passers.
2) Your thinking has an implied premise which is invalid:
a) I want X
b) I vote for Law Y which provides me X
c) By doing this I authorize other people who want Z to vote for Law B which provides them Z
This is almost right, but contains a fatal flaw. A law must have *two* things to authorize it, not just one (in our Republic anyway):
a) The voters must want it and
b) It must be a *legal* law... ie it must accord with the Constitution and the Law of God. (Failing the first it is illegal by our constitution, failing the second it is not a law at all.)
So if you, out of hate for murdereres, pass a law commanding their execution:
a) You want the law and
b) It is in accord with the constitution and law of God.
If I, 'loving' murderers, pass a law calling for them to be givne $2000 and returned to society:
a) I want the law but
b) It does not accord with the Law of God.
Thus the first law is a valid law, the second invalid.
Turning then to the child. If the child gets the right answer because he wants to show up his brother who isn’t good at math… he has gotten the right answer. He is a sinner, no doubt. But the math problem is right.
Your example illustrates my point. If we pass a law that *looks* right, but is based on unGodly premises… then it is no law at all. The motive of the Prop 8 advocates matters not at all (except to their sin nature) if the law itself is Godly. (Which I would argue it isn’t, but that’s another discussion. Not to give ammunition to its opponents, whose laws are even *less* Godly.)
Okay, let me see if I understand you properly. There is a mad rush of anti-Prop 8 people who are saying, "You people who voted for Prop 8 are all haters." You're response (I mean your response if you had voted for the proposition and were holding the position you appear to hold in these comments) would be, "Doesn't matter." You have no interest in responding to the accusation. You have no concern about the truth of the statement.
You have no concern about the truth of the statement.
People who support Sodomy have no interest in the truth:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
People who oppose Sodomy know the truth.
To whom should I be speaking?
But ... this is a moot point from your perspective anyway. Hate is the proper attitude. They would say, "You favor this because you hate gays!" You would reply, "Yes, that's true. God's enemies are my enemies."
Well, close. I belive that Biblical hate is the appropriate term for those who are actively seeking the destruction of Gods rule.
In this case, the promoters of Sodomy who, in attempting to blaspheme the word 'marriage' by pretending that a Sodomite relationship could possibly fit under that name, are proposing themselves as active enemies of God.
Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
...
Psa 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
Psa 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
Psa 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
Psa 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.
And I wouldn't say, "I hate gays". I would say that Christians should hate those who actively promote Sodomy.
It all comes down to the gays wanting us to except their lifestlye. It has noting to do with marriage or anything else. Look how TV shows picture the gay lifestyle as normal. Even the micky mouse channel protrays it that way to our kids.
Like the old saying, love the sinner, hate the sin. And which is the worst sin, being gay or hating the homosexual.
Great blog by-the-way
Well, that is the real point, isn't it? In California, they already have domestic partnership laws which give them all the same rights and responsibilities that married couples have. If it was about equality, that would be sufficient. It's about acceptability.
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