When you look at the passage in question, however, I think you'll find something that's a bit more disturbing than the notion that God brought about AIDS as a punishment to homosexuals. In fact, why don't you turn with me in your Bibles to Romans 1 and take a look at this passage?
18 The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them (Rom. 1:18-32)What does Paul say is the basic problem in this passage? What is it that makes God angry? It is the suppression of truth that occurs by Man's ungodly and unrighteous actions (v 18). (Generally speaking, it is understood that "ungodliness" refers to violations of our relationship with God and "unrighteousness" refers to violations of our relationships with others.) Because of our sin against God and against each other, then, the truth is obscured. What truth? Our knowledge of God (vs 19-20). Do you want to know why it is that there are people who deny the existence of God? It is sin, plain and simple.
Our sin results in the suppression of the truth about God. Suppression of the truth about God makes us foolish while we think we're wise (v 22). The natural way that humans operate at this point is to obscure the glory of God and assign that glory to Man and nature (v 23). It is standard operating procedure for us human beings to make ourselves out to be the most important things in the universe. That's a problem ... because we're not.
Here is where it gets really interesting. Paul starts verse 24 with "Therefore." It's a simple concept -- "for this reason." We can all read for ourselves what God did -- "gave them up in the lusts of their hearts" -- but He didn't do it for no reason. He did it on the basis of our obscuring the truth about Him and supplanting Him as the Most High with ourselves as the most high. Do you catch what that means? It means that our impure lust is God's judgment on us ungrateful, idolatrous beings. Oh, He didn't cause us to be full of impure lust, but it is clear that He allowed it as a product of our choice to deny Him His rightful place. And it gets worse! That didn't hurt us enough -- we served the creature rather than the Creator (v 25) -- so He let us go further. The next judgment from God was "dishonorable passions" (v 26). And when our dishonorable passions failed to get our attention, passed one more judgment: A debased mind (v 28).
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that God caused these things. But don't miss the point of Paul's statements, either. God was in control. He said, "Thus far and no farther." And we pushed it to its limits. So God, as an act of judgment, removed His hand and said, "That far and no farther." With new license, we pushed ourselves to new depths of sin. And having dug as deep as we could, wearying ourselves at sinning and not showing any repentance, He removed His hand again.
There are still those who think that AIDS is God's judgment on homosexuals. That's fine. I'm not likely to convince them otherwise. Paul, however, says that sin is God's temporal judgment on sinners. Paul says that our problem of impure lust (seriously, folks, surely no one would doubt that human beings suffer from lust overkill) is a judgment from God for our failure to recognize Him as God. He says that our dishonorable passions -- our over-emphasis on sexual immorality (including homosexual immorality) -- is a judgment from God for our failure to repent of our lust. He says that our inability to even think straight -- to recognize morality, to distinguish between right and wrong, to know what we ought and ought not do -- is a judgment from God for our failure to repent of our dishonorable passions. In other words, the reason that we are so deeply sinful is because, as an act of judgment, God removed the stoppers that would have prevented it.
There is a final judgment coming. We know that. We will all need to answer for our sin. And Christians know that the only possible answers are "Christ" or "eternal punishment." In the meantime, however, it is abundantly clear that we need to be transformed by the renewing of the mind (Rom. 12:2) and we need to know how to control our own bodies in holiness and honor, abstaining from sexual immorality (1 Thess. 4:3-4). First and foremost, we need to be constantly reminded to place our attention on God, the One deserving all glory and honor. There are temporal consequences to our sin. Don't let further sin be one of them.
7 comments:
As far as your end point, that God uses sin as a punishment for sin... well and good, and this passage certainly supports this.
However your logic early on is... less ideal. It is not mandatory that God when God uses a disase as a punishement He strikes exactly and only and all the people who participate in that sin. This does not at all reflect what we see in the OT.
Davids sins were punished via his son (his sin with Bathsheba) or the whole nation (his sin in numbering the people). Other sins were punished similarly, with the whole nation being punished... remember the snake on the pole. Are you saying that only those who sinned died, and only those who didn't sin survived?
Thats just not the way God did things.
No, I didn't say God doesn't use disease as punishment. The argument with which I was disagreeing was, "the disease was God's judgment on homosexuals." If AIDS is God's judgment on homosexuals, and non-homosexuals get it, then God missed. I wasn't denying that God uses disease as judgment on sinners. I wasn't even suggesting that people who have AIDS and are heterosexuals didn't sin. It is the argument that AIDS is God's judgment on homosexuals that is problematic.
No, it's not. God judges groups, not just individuals. Always has.
You know me, and you know I don't believe that 'homosexuals' exist. But our society, which has legalized and promoted sodomy, is being judged. Woe to those who call evil good.
Gods judgements have often been group oriented... what you call having 'bad aim'. Its the way he does things. I may not understand it, but as the God of logic, you need to take that up with him.
Yes, it is. You're missing my point, von. If we say that AIDS is God's judgment for people that commit homosexual sin, then when it exceeds those people, it is a problem. If you say, "No, but sickness is God's judgment for sin," then you've changed the "if-then" and it's a different question.
(I would question the premise entirely. When they asked Jesus about the sin that made the blind man blind, Jesus said that he wasn't blind because of sin. Unpleasant things happening to people is not always judgment, so I'd be careful about the entire question myself.)
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
No, it is not a problem. As I pointed out, Gods judgment frequently affect people beyond those who engage in it. Was Davids child guilty? Yet he was punished for Davids sin.
Sodomy is one form of sin. There are many more. I don't see it as being helpful, absent a direct revelation of God, to tie one sin to one punishment. However that is not the same as agreeing to your logic that a disease can be a punishment for a sin if and only if it is specific in its application. For Eves sin, all women have pain in childbirth, for Adams sin, the ground itself groans.
Like it or not, 'logical' or not, each of our sins affect those around us.
Sigh. Well, I suppose I'll never get across the idea I was trying to convey. I don't know if it is preconceptions on your side or a failure to communicate on my side.
1) I never suggested our sin doesn't affect others around us.
2) I never suggested that God punishes people unjustly.
3) It is not my logic that "that a disease can be a punishment for a sin if and only if it is specific in its application."
Since 1) you appear to agree with my main idea (deeper sin is punishment for sin), and 2) since it appears that my introductory point (that people have misstated the problem of AIDS) will never be understood, perhaps we should just let it go.
Yes, I definitely agree with your main point. I was merely reacting to comments such as:
Never mind that it doesn't make a lot of sense. Never mind that not all homosexuals have the disease. Never mind that there are heterosexuals and even children that have the disease. Never mind that it makes God out to be ... well ... a really bad aim with His judgment.
and
If AIDS is God's judgment on homosexuals, and non-homosexuals get it, then God missed.
God in his Word says:
Exo 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
Thus following Gods Law will bring us the blessing of having 'none of these diseases'. AIDS, as a sexually transmitted disease, is one of the aspects of the curse that is more 'sin specific' than others. It is not usually gluttony or covetousness or even murder that leads to Syphillis, Gonorhea, or AIDS. But it is Sodomy, Adultery, and Fornication.
However, as will all such punishments, sometimes those in the entourage get hit... the birth children of infected mothers, the innocent spouse, the blood transfusion recipient... or even those with a vulnerable sin, such as needle sharers.
A society without fornication, adultery, sodomy, etc.... and without contact with those that do... would be a society without AIDS, Syphillis, etc.
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