Home schooling in Germany is illegal. I didn't realize that before, but why would I? I don't live in Germany. Yet, the HSLDA, the Home Schooling Legal Defense Association wants that changed. They want to go to court to force the government to allow home schooling. It's deemed "government oppression" to disallow home schooling. WorldNetDaily decries their "Nazi-era law" and pictures the mean ol' government dragging "crying children" to class. People in Germany have gone to prison for defying the laws. Blogs are written supporting the poor oppressed folk of Germany who don't have the freedom to home school their kids.
Now, if you detected a bias in that last paragraph, I would be lying if I said you were mistaken. Don't get me wrong. I have a great deal of respect for people who home school their kids. For the large part, home schooled kids get the best education under the best conditions with the best outcome. No doubt. What could be better than having a loving teacher who is also your parent personally teach you all you need to know in life? It's a great concept. I'm in favor of it.
The part that I don't get is the demand for it. I'm speaking here of Christians. When secular people demand whatever they demand, that's their prerogative. But on what basis do Christians make such a demand? Notice that I'm speaking here of demand, which is different than request. A demand says, "You are keeping us from that which is rightly ours" while a request says, "We would appreciate it if you would give us what we ask." Fundamentally different.
In America, we have "God-given" rights which are Constitutionally ours. We have the right to freedom of speech, religion, and so on. Based on the Constitution, if a government entity attempts to remove those rights, we (Americans) have the right, nay, the obligation to demand that those rights be returned. On the other hand, as Christians, we have certain obligations. We must, for instance, preach the Gospel. We are not given the option of not preaching the Gospel. If the government forbids it, we don't have the option to stop. As in previous days in Church history, we might face penalties for obeying God rather than men, but we have to do it.
I'm having trouble, however, figuring out where "home schooling" falls under any of this. I don't see it as a Constitutional or God-given right. I don't see it as a command of Scripture. So on what basis do we make it an issue of such magnitude? On what basis do we as Christians feel the need to "go to war with Germany", so to speak, over this issue?
Someone suggested that it was due to God-given parental responsibility. I had to think that one through. If it is due to God-given parental responsibility, then what can we determine from this? Well, apparently it would require that public schools (and private schools) violate the God-given responsibility to parents. That would require that such a position hold that any Christian parent who sends their kids to public or private school does so in violation of God's command to be good parents. It is biblical child abuse of sorts. I'm not sure that anyone actually wants to go there, but perhaps. But if we take it to its logical conclusion, then there is another parallel that is affected. Say that I am a parent and live in a country where providing for my family is difficult or impossible. If the rule of law prevents me from doing what I'm required to do, then it is required that I violate the law. So I take my family to a nearby country illegally for the sole purpose of meeting the demands of being a good parent. I violate that country's laws about such entry so that I can provide for my family, and that's okay because the God-given law of being a good parent supersedes human laws that prevent it.
That, of course, won't work either. So while I admire home schoolers and I feel badly for those who are not allowed to do so, I can't figure out what makes it so evil or "oppressive" of the German government that they must be forced to change their laws to allow it. What makes home schooling that important?
27 comments:
ooooh....
You say:
"Well, apparently it would require that public schools (and private schools) violate the God-given responsibility to parents. That would require that such a position hold that any Christian parent who sends their kids to public or private school does so in violation of God's command to be good parents. It is biblical child abuse of sorts."
Yes. That is precisely correct. It is a fundamental premise of many of those of us who homeschool. And I would be perfectly willing to discuss/debate it.
However you might also be interested in more answer on the end of your post; ie what makes it 'evil' or 'oppressive' that the German government doesn't allow it.
The long answer is long, but the short answer is 'because they specifically wish to not allow seperate groups of people who believe differently than the state mandated beliefs'. This sounds to bizarre to be true in a modern state, but it is exactly what they have said. You can even find an article by Robert Reich where (reading between the lines) he said the same thing.
A family, for example, was penalized for not allowing to participate in a school program that they found offensive. Others are not allowed to opt out of sex ed programs that teach things counter to their belief.
Much more later.
Von
Keeping in mind that my post was by way of a question rather than a firm opinion ...
... are you actually holding that any Christian parent who sends their child to public or private school is violating God's command to be a good parent?
Again, it's a question. (Normally a question asked like that is more of an expression of incredulity intended to actually express a view. I'm not. I'm asking if that is what you intend and nothing more.)
are you actually holding that any Christian parent who sends their child to public or private school is violating God's command to be a good parent?
Public school, yes. I went to public school. To be frank, it sucked. Not only was it a lousy education (98% of what I know I learned on my own), the only concerted effort they made regarded indoctrination to a political view. My daughter will never go to public school.
I think you are forgetting the importance of why Abraham was chosen in the first place. From Genesis 18:
18Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
That's no small potatoes. Having the option of home-schooling is central to our responsibility as parents, particularly when the public schools are so toxic. The US is right to pressure Germany to end this Hitler-era law.
Option is good. The impression I'm getting from these comments, however, is that parents who do fail to take their kids out of public school are sinful, abusive parents who have failed to be the parents God requires.
I wasn't aware that this was the position people were taking.
The German government is sinful and abusive in not giving the option to parents. Many parents have no other option than to use the public schools (both parents working, no money for private school, etc.). In my case, my father made his living as a principal of a public school. The risks of a high-profile public school figure homeschooling his kids or having them in private schools were potentially harmful to his career.
Hmmm, I lost a post somewhere.
Anyway, the word 'abuse' doesn't occur in Scripture, so I won't stand by it. However, as Jim points out in part, the responsibility for the education of the child falls directly on the father, and the education that he is to recieve is:
1Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
(emphasis mine)
Yes, Jim. In his comments, von has argued that the German government is evil and oppressive in their approach.
von, Do you understand Scripture to command not only that kids be home schooled, but that it be the father who teaches them? (I've always understood that it was the father's responsibility, but that he can carry out that responsibility via various means such as school, wife, etc. I, as a father, for instance, did speak to my children about the truth all the time. I checked what they were learning from other sources, affirmed what was true and corrected what was false. I believed their education was my responsibility, but not necessarily solely my task.)
Both. The teaching of the Law of God to ones children is the responsibility of the father. Obviously in carrying out that responsibility he uses various means. As these means get further and further from the direct teaching of the father, however, they become less and less a fulfillment of this responsibilty; both in symbol and in actual fact/result.
I would argue (based on the Scriptural passages concerned) that the end result should always be that the children say (as it were) 'this is my fathers teaching'. Having taught in both public and Christian schools it is certainly not the norm for children, who I taught, Bible class to walk away from my class saying 'this is my fathers teaching'. Indeed in many cases it was different or even contradictory!
Concerning public schools specifically (and the ones in Germany are good examples) far from the fathers doctrine being taught in schools, the fathers doctrine is actively repudiated in schools. Thus, far from the child being taught the law of God when he stands, sits, etc.... he attends an institution for several hours a day (probably longer than he has with his parents) that contradicts His Law.
And since most parents nowadays don't even have family worship etc.... how are they fulfilling these responsibilities??
stan - I have no dog in this hunt, but I am a sympathizer with many who home school.
I would frame the question this way: what is a parent's God-given responsibility when a school system is actively harmful to children? Much of the school's curriculum is designed to alter the beliefs of students - not to impart information or teach skills. I have witnessed this attitude education on many issues, and I must say it is pretty close to evil. Children are unable to defend themselves as these have not developed the critical thinking skills necessary to do so.
I am not saying that parents who send their children to public or private schools are failing in their responsibilities automatically. But in some cases they are.
What happens when schools teach attitudes that are a violation of your most basic beliefs? That this can and does happen can be seen in the approach historically taken by the former Soviet Union and China in education - as well as by the Nazis. What happens when it is occurring in more 'democratic' societies? If one were to read, say, the opinions of Julian Huxley (famed atheist brother of Aldous Huxley - and former head of UNESCO) - one would think twice about sending one's children to public schools - anywhere that UN initiatives were followed.
I fully recognize the issue you take with Christian demands. I get that this is problematic. But I don't think Christian parents can avoid a responsibility for their children's education and well-being. I think the issue is a little more pronounced than just wasting children's time, or providing them with a poor education. It is more that attitudes that are harmful really are being taught and advocated by many in the school system - in the US - but also in Canada and Europe.
I, too, am a great sympathizer with home schoolers (as I indicated). I have a deep respect for them (setting aside the fringe elements who always seem to be around any good thing). Nor would I even want to hint that I might think that a father (actually, I'm with von here -- it is the FATHER'S responsibility) would be excused in some way from the responsibility of the education of his children. (I think it is just as dangerous for a father to simply let his kids learn from church lessons rather than discussing and evaluating them as well.)
I wonder, however, at what point we do our children harm by taking them out of this world ... well, I suppose that's a topic for a different (but related) discussion, isn't it?
But, von, I'm afraid my point has been lost. Here's my point. Why is it required that we change the law in Germany?
When the authorities in Israel told the disciples "You can't preach the Gospel anymore," they responded, "Who should we obey; God or man?"
If you believe that it is mandatory that you teach your kids at home and your country doesn't allow it, isn't it the case that you simply do what you believe God is commanding and bear the consequences (as the disciples did) if they come? Or should the disciples have demanded a change in the law so they could do what God commanded?
It's not the home schooling I'm questioning. It's the demand.
Ah, a good question.
The difference between the two situations is this: in a Democracy (or Republic) we are not only subjects, we are also rulers. ('Government of the people, by the people' kind of thing.) Therefore it is NOT ONLY necessary that we do good and suffer the consequences, it is ALSO necessary that we voice the evil nature of the underlying law or actions of governmental figures.
But ... I'm not German. What right have I to try to get Germany to change their laws?
Do you mean 'what responsibility' do you have to try to get Germany to change its laws? The same responsibility we always have for our neighbors ala Matthew 18.
Still stuck. But since I don't see home schooling as a Divine Command, I don't see how it is required that we demand each and every country around the world surrender its will to us to allow home schooling in each and every country around the world.
I suppose it's an impasse, due to my failure to see home schooling as a biblical requirement.
Well, you would need to continue the discussion on a 'for the sake of discussion basis'; ie 'assuming for the sake of discussion that homeschooling is a Biblical command on the level of preaching, praying etc., how should we then live.
So not really an impasses, just a bump in the road :)
Well, sure, that would work ... but it would work for anything at all. We could discuss for the sake of discussion what we should do if the Bible mandated killing infidels (I'm trying to be outlandish, not parallel). How, then, should we live? But to make an intelligent discussion out of it, it would have to be a reasonable basis. We both agree that the Bible doesn't teach us to kill infidels. If I cannot see anywhere in the Bible that homeschooling is a biblical command on the same level as preaching and praying, it would be an exercise in futility for me to examine what I should then do.
However, despite being unconvinced as I am, it still goes back to the question of whether or not Christians ought to be attempting to take over the governments of the world, doesn't it? If I believe that I am required to do what God tells me to do and I am convinced that God tells me to homeschool (I believe the first without the second), then I would homeschool and take the consequences. I wouldn't attempt to alter the governments of my nation or the nations around me to get them to submit to my requirements from God.
Part of that perspective of mine, I suppose, is predicated on the lack of belief I have that the government is mine. We call it a "government of the people, by the people, for the people", but ... as far as I know I haven't been represented in government for a long, long time. Since I don't find a biblical reason to take over the government and I don't believe that the government really is a government of the people, I would have a different perspective than you, wouldn't I?
Every father or parent has a responsibility to teach the Law to their children. Agreed. That is biblically required. What von is saying is why then send them to "Atheist Indoctrination U"? You say that if the government says you can't homeschool, then you practice civil disobedience (a soldily biblical tactic) and suffer the consequences.
But then it is a democracy, isn't it? If you were a German citizen and the Make Homeschooling Legal PAC called you for support, would you say, "No, I am not supposed to help you"? That doesn't make sense to me but you seem to be saying it here: " I wouldn't attempt to alter the governments of my nation or the nations around me to get them to submit to my requirements from God". I'd add that you are asking you (not them) to submit to your own requirements and asking them to let you do that. What harm is it to them?
Christians should be concerned for Christians in other countries because they are our brothers and sisters.
No, Jim, it isn't a democracy. We call it that, but it isn't. It is a republic. We say it is a government of the people and by the people, but tell me how successful you have been at "fighting city hall" in, oh, I don't know, property taxes, for instance. We give it the image that we are the government, but I haven't had someone in office who represents me in a long time.
That being said, there are three difficulties I see here. First, I am not German. The original question was regarding the push of non-German Christians to change German government. Whatever the German government is (democracy, republic, or whatever), it is not my government to change. It is theirs. Second, the question is one of demand rather than request. I would have no problem petitioning my government to get them to do something, especially if I believed it was a command from God. Finally, I have yet to see the biblical argument that says (in so many words) "Thou shalt home school thy children." I have yet to see the biblical mandate to keep my kids out of school and teach them myself. (It would, of course, be pointless to me since my kids are all grown.)
So, since I am not German, I can't imagine why I would need to campaign to change the German government. Since I don't see home schooling as a biblical mandate, I can't imagine why I would want to campaign to change the German government. Ultimately, I cannot find any room for the demand for change rather than the request for change. (After all, even if it really were a "government of the people", it will never be a "government of the person ... ME" and, therefore, still subject to others.)
Am I expressing my concerns clearly? I'm not against home schooling. I'm not even against asking the German government to change. I don't see the biblical mandate (which, I suppose, needs a lot of discussion if it is really there) and I never see a biblical command to take over the government. Do you see why I'm stuck here?
It's not about a biblical command to homeschool but the freedom to be able to homeschool. And certainly Germans can petition their "republic" to demand that they be allowed that alternative.
No one is arguing that homeschooling is a biblical command, just that parents bring there children up in the "ways of the Lord" (Gen. 18).
Re: property taxes, I'm all over the petitions to set a 1.35% millage rate (cut in half). Influencing the government to change a law is not "taking it over". So you're not stuck. Take care
If you're talking about German citizens trying to change German law, I'm fine. If you're talking about people petitioning to change the law, I'm fine. If you're talking about asking to change laws (be it homeschooling or property taxes), I'm fine. It's the demand that eludes me.
By the way, as I understand it, von is arguing that it is a biblical command that parents homeschool their kids. If von reads this and sees that I have misunderstood him, I hope that he will let me know, but that seems to be his position.
What I said, and stand by, was:
You say:
"Well, apparently it would require that public schools (and private schools) violate the God-given responsibility to parents. That would require that such a position hold that any Christian parent who sends their kids to public or private school does so in violation of God's command to be good parents. It is biblical child abuse of sorts."
Yes. That is precisely correct. It is a fundamental premise of many of those of us who homeschool. And I would be perfectly willing to discuss/debate it. ... with a couple of caveats and corrections. I never say 'you must homeschool'; since homeschooling is found nowhere in Scripture. Indeed, homeschool is just what is called when one does what Scripture requires in a society where it is not the norm There would have been no need to set out 'homeschooling' in Scripture, since it was the norm. What was necessary was to lay out the outline of the curriculum: namely the law of God.
This discussion really needs to be seperated into several different bits: one on whether homeschooling is commanded, one on Christians relationship to their government; and one on Christians relationships to other governments. We disagree on each one of these, but the combined discussion gets a bit boggy.
Yes, I've seen that 1) the concepts are mixed and 2) mixing them makes the conversation difficult.
On the first, you say that homeschooling, in essence, is commanded. I say that the father is responsible for his children's education in all its forms. Perhaps we're not as far apart on that as it looks. (It is difficult to make the curriculum "the law of God" and still hold that they've been taught math, English grammar, or lots of the other non-related subjects.)
We do disagree on the second (and, therefore, the third) issue. I see the biblical perspective as being focused on individuals, their connection to Christ, and their inclusion in the kingdom of God. I don't see it as primarily concerned with temporal governments.
You say:
(It is difficult to make the curriculum "the law of God" and still hold that they've been taught math, English grammar, or lots of the other non-related subjects.)
If you see them as non-related, then I can see why you would find it difficult. However even many of the Christian schools reject their non-relatedness. After all 'in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth'; thus all of creation is in fact a study of God
Of course, whether or not one can use the Bible to teach algebra is a long, long way from the discussion of whether or not the Bible commands home schooling and requires Christians in America to demand that the German government change its laws, isn't it?
I was responding to your parenthetical. Definetly a subject for an entire different thread.
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