A lot of people who call themselves (and even are) Christians seem to think like deists. The deist view, in shorthand, is the idea that God made the universe and sent it spinning and now we're mostly on our own. There are, of course, varieties of this. There are those who hold it just like I stated it. God is mostly not there at all. There are those that think that God intervenes at times, but mostly the world runs on natural laws and such. There are those who think that God is much more involved but draws the line at Human Free Will. That's where He won't intervene. But all of these are still, to some degree or another, the deist view.
I'm a theist. I believe that not a sparrow falls that God is not aware of (Matt 10:29). I believe that He is actually involved in the number of hairs on my head (and that is a very work-intensive job, considering the constantly declining number) (Matt 10:30). I believe that God owns all that is, so all this is is part of His concern (Deut 10:14; Psa 50:12). While Christians (genuine Christians) would agree that Christ is the creator of all things, I believe that in Him all things hold together (Col 1:17). I believe that God is love (1 John 4:16), that God is Sovereign (even over Man's Free Will) (1 Tim 6:15), and that all He does is good. I believe that there is nothing outside of His control (as Sproul puts it, not one "maverick molecule"). I believe that God is good (Mark 10:18) and that anyone who does good does it because God is working in him (3 John 1:11). I believe that all power belongs to God (Psa 62:11). I even believe that, while we certainly have the ability to make choices, in the final analysis God decides what does and doesn't get done (Prov 16:9; 19:21). I believe that all things come from God, through God, and are for God (Rom 11:36). I'm a theist. A theist believes that God is absolutely involved in the tiniest components of this universe through the biggest events. Without God, nothing would have existed and nothing would continue to exist.
Now, a lot of people are deists because they don't know better. A lot of others are deists because they are more comfortable with that. Me? I cannot even begin to imagine a world in which God was not intimately involved in everything. Only in that is there comfort. Oh, but in that there is great comfort. You can keep your God who isn't there. I'll take the biblical version that places Him in the middle of everything.
13 comments:
If what I am understanding you to say is accurate, then you are proposing that God is actively causing all things, instead of merely allowing some things to happen.
If that assessment is correct, then how does sin factor in?
Would you mind expounding a bit more on exactly what you mean, Stan? You say you believe that God is aware of fallen sparrows, and I believe that as well. Does that make me a theist rather than a deist?
You say that God "is involved in the number of hairs on your head..." - what do you mean by that? That God decides, "Stan will have 10,046 hairs on his head on Jan 12, 1969, 20,194 hairs on Dec 30, 2000..." and so on? That God is actively making sure you have a certain number of hairs on your head on each given time/date, or simply that God is aware of how many hairs you have on your head each moment? I believe the latter (God being omniscient, sure, of course, why wouldn't God?), but suggesting God is actively making certain of specific number of hairs on each head in each moment, that this is sort of trivializing God's great creation and God's greatness, making God into some infinite and infinitely anal-retentive micromanager.
Are you suggesting God is going around planning and approving of the interaction of each molecule on each microbe on each flea on each critter in the whole world in each moment of the universe? That seems a bit, odd and... I don't know, trivial is the best word I can think of to describe it. It seems to me that that sort of suggestion (IF you're suggesting it), really downplays and minimizes the great rich complex brilliant elegant beauty of God's creation, as if God isn't capable of creating a universe that runs on its own.
Would you mind clarifying further?
Or, put another way, could you explain in some detail what you mean by this?
A theist believes that God is absolutely involved in the tiniest components of this universe through the biggest events.
I believe God cares and is right here with us, even with the falling sparrow, in a very real spiritual manner, and is involved in caring about us comforting, cheering, supporting us, but NOT that God actively plans and/or causes each little sneeze from a sparrow or each fart from an earthworm. In what sense do you mean "God is involved..."? If you don't mind expounding.
I'm truly curious as to what you think on this point. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Thanks!
Jesus not being involved in Creation is a new one to me. I thought it was spelled out pretty clearly in the opening of John "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."
Since most Christians would agree that the Word is Christ, and that "In Him was life", then the "Him" would be Christ. Seems quite clear to me.
072591, is that your first name or your last? (Kidding.)
"If that assessment is correct, then how does sin factor in?"
Note first that I said, "We certainly have the ability to make choices." Thus, since we have the ability (indeed, the requirement) to make choices, we are held responsible for those choices.
Scripture says, "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov 16:4). Jesus said, "For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed" (Luke 22:22). That is, 1) Judas's betrayal was predetermined, and 2) Judas was still held responsible for his choice. Of the ultimate sin, the murder of the Son of God, the Bible says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:27-28). Joseph told his brothers, "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good" (Gen 50:20). Note the two intentions -- one sinful and human and the other good and divine.
The Bible holds Man responsible for his sin while understanding that the Sovereign God has ordained it for His purposes. ("Ordained" means "to decree" without necessitating "to cause".)
On the other hand, if that assessment is incorrect, sin snuck up on God, surprised Him, and overpowered Him. "Oops! Didn't see that coming! What a mess!"
Dan (Trabue), I've published your two comments against my preferences because everyone else will likely need the answer. (That is, not to discuss it with you.) I'd like to point out that the only reason you are asking the question is that it would appear that I have taken a "radical stance" on theism. This is an indication of how far we've come from the biblical image.
"Are you suggesting God is going around planning and approving of the interaction of each molecule on each microbe on each flea on each critter in the whole world in each moment of the universe?"
I answered that. I answered it expressly in the original post. "I believe that there is nothing outside of His control (as Sproul puts it, not one 'maverick molecule')." Yes, I mean each molecule. It was, in fact, your comment on an earlier post that made me write this one. You used the term, "hyper-interventionist", as if that was a bad thing, a silly thing, a wrong thing. I use it as a biblical thing. In fact, I listed the Scriptures (a sampling) that cause me to believe this way. And most of them were not "conclusions" but the actual words. I believe that God "works all things after the counsel of His will" and that "all things" means a whole lot of things but not at all the workings of a microbe ... oh, wait ... no, that means "all things".
I asked my physics teacher, "I understand that opposite forces attract. I understand, therefore, that electrons would be attracted to protons at the nucleus while inertia would draw them out. I understand that this makes for a stable atom. That's all fine. But here's my question. If opposite forces attract and like forces repel, what holds the nucleus, consisting of positively-charged protons, together?" He had no answer. Science has no answer. Paul's answer was, "In Him all things hold together" (Col 1:17).
Do I believe that God is involved in the molecule on the microbe? I believe that God Himself is holding together the nucleus of the atom that forms the molecule on the microbe. (And that is why I called you a "deist" when you raised the objection of a "hyper-interventionist" God. You illustrate deism quite well with your "a universe that runs on its own" concept.) Yes, yes, of course you disagree. I do think I've answered your question, though. But, I believe I answered it before you asked.
But Stan, why does God still blame us? I mean, who is able to resist his will?
Never mind my last comment, I misread the sentence.
Actually, David, there are indeed those who argue that Jesus was not involved in creation. Modalists (who think of themselves as "Trinitarians" but are not) say that the "Three-In-One" appeared first as "Father" in creation, as "Son" at the Incarnation, and finally as "Spirit" today. JWs seem to miss entirely that passage you noted: "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made." "Ummm, Mr. JW, if Jesus was created and "all things were made through Him", how did He make Himself?" Do you hear the crickets? No answer.
No, people who try to bear the name "Christian" seem to have no limits to their heresies.
Stan,
To co-op the title of a Francis Schaeffer book "He is There and He is Not Silent." In my way of thinking the personal component of God's interaction with man rules out notions of the deistic. Love, adoption, sonship, etc. involve interaction with people. Based on that alone one could not have a "wind it up and let it go" framework of belief, at least if they are interested in being consistent and non-contradictory in their thinking (undeniably not a problem for some).
Also, thanks for the example of the atom. Although my guess is that the contemporary scientist would respond that given enough time scientific experimentation and discovery will provide an answer to the mystery of the atom, and that believing in the scripture you quoted is to give up and the discovery is over. This is why I have posited that possibly the greatest evil in the mind of many scientists today is that they ever actually do find out the full extent of how something works (discovery is the ultimate good). I posted recently about the recent advances in discovery of the Higgs boson. One scientist was quoted in the original article as stating the hope that a single particle would not fully explain why atoms have mass, but that the findings from CERN would only spark more inquiry.
It goes without saying that belief in the Bible does not preclude science (as several thousand years of human history will testify). God is either Sovereign or He is not. I think that simply believing what is written in the text of scripture will compel us to love God, and that love will drive us to discover all the ways He employs to bring glory to Himself (scientific, philosophic, artistic, etc.). Appreciating the creator, who is involved in and in control of (Sovereign over) all things is not to end discovery, but rather to begin a lifelong journey of seeing the truly sublime in all of life, all for the ultimate glory of the Creator of all things.
Thanks Stan for another terrific post.
Stan comments above, “Science has no answer.”
I am betting that your physics teacher was having a long day and didn’t want to launch into a difficult discussion on neutrons, pions, gluons, the strong nuclear force, and chromodynamics. The Half Price Books west of Paradise Valley Mall sometimes has Kenneth Ford’s book ‘101 Quantum Questions Answered’, which I recommend. I suppose there’s been millions of journal pages written on the topic of nuclear stability. To whittle it down to a minimalist explanation, pion exchange among nucleons (protons and neutrons) stabilizes nuclei when the number of neutrons is approximately equal to the number of protons. One thing that Ford doesn’t go into (if I recall) is that identical particles repel when exchanging odd-integer spin bosons, and they attract when exchanging even-integer spin bosons. Electrostatic repulsion results from the exchange of spin-1 photons, while proton-proton attraction results from the exchange of spin-0 pions. Unlike photons, which are massless, pions are massive, and a consequence is that the nuclear force is effectively short-range with an exponential decay drop-off of force with distance, unlike electrostatics where the drop-off in force goes as the inverse-square of distance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pions
Jeremy, someone somewhere said of science that one day they will reach the pinnacle and find out that religion was already there. Just because "I don't like the answer that God holds it all together" doesn't make it false, eh? :)
And after being at first a practical atheist (living as if there is no God) and then a deist myself, I have come to this new (or recovered this biblical) theism with Scripture and reason first followed by a huge rush of relief. "You mean that God is intimately involved in everything, that there is a purpose and a reason for everything, that nothing happens without His consent? Wow! What a relief!" I remember hearing of a prominent TV minister who told a caller who lost her child, "God didn't mean for that to happen" and I thought, "Do not ever tell me that. There is no comfort in a God who cannot deal with our lives." Take from me my theism and you take from me my comfort and hope ... and ultimately my God.
Sorry, Anon. I should have said, "Science doesn't have the answers."
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