Well, of course, I could run down the path of logic. Follow ... quickly. God chooses (by whatever means) whom He will save. Thus, those who are not chosen are "predestined" for damnation. Thus, the "double" side. It seems quite obvious, in fact. If I offer my wife a bouquet of various flowers and she picks out the carnations and throws out the rest, you could say "She chose the carnations" or you could say "She threw out the rest" and be accurate.
"No, no," you will (wisely) warn me, "the heart is deceitful. That's human logic. the claim is that it is not taught in the Bible." Ah, yes. That's where we really ought to go to figure this out.
So ... I'm reading through Peter's first epistle (which is, as I'm sure you know, in the Bible) and I come across this:
They stumble because they disobey the Word, as they were destined to do (1 Peter 2:8).Whoa! Wait a minute! Peter uses the word "destined" here in terms of people who disobey the Word. The context, in fact, is the "stone of stumbling and rock of offense" that Christ is to those who reject Him. He trips them up because "they were destined" for it. The Greek word means "placed" as in "assigned", "ordained", "appointed". The idea is precisely the same one offered in Jude 1:4 where he writes of false teachers "who long ago were designated for condemnation". (That phrase, "long ago", confounds translators. The King James says "before of old ordained". Before old. That is, in times preceding time. That is, no matter how you view it, "predestination".)
Now, again, I'm not suggesting a method, an application, a process or procedure. I'm not saying how God does it. What I am suggesting is that, just as the Bible clearly teaches that God chooses whom He will save (by whatever means you care to prefer), the Bible and logic confirm double predestination -- that God also has ordained (by whatever means you care to prefer) who will not be saved. It isn't "symmetrical" -- God doesn't do the same thing in both cases -- but neither is it questionable. The Bible does teach it. Now all we have to do is figure out how to deal with it.
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We are also told of those "Vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." That would seem to imply that those vessels were made for the purpose of being destroyed, they were predestined for destruction. I tried to explain double predestination to my mom once, and she doesn't get her head around a loving God that would choose people for Hell, but it makes perfect sense to me in light of God's absolute sovereignty and predestination. If He is in absolute control, and He chooses some for salvation, He must necessarily have chosen the rest for damnation. Since He did all this choosing before there was even such a thing as time, it must have been by His will, not our action.
In the 1Peter 2:8 verse, what was destined? That they will disobey the Word, or that they will stumble as a result of disobeying? It's not an insignificant distinction. If someone indulges in too much cocaine, by his actions he is destined to become an addict and suffer other consequences as well. I ask because your quote suggests the stumbling was destined to happen, whereas the wording in mine suggests the disobeying was destined to happen.
Based on the language and the Jude 1 parallel reference, it would appear that the disobedience was predestined.
How can one accept the logic of double predestination without also assigning to God the responsibility of foreordaining Adam's fall and man's sin? As compelling as it may seem, the logic of double predestination is ultimately illogical because of the congenial or cooperative relationship it necessarily establishes between God and sin.
Eric, I think it's a valid question. Allow me to respond.
First, if God knows all that will occur, He must necessarily know who will and who won't be saved. Thus, both "who will" (one side of "predestination") and "who won't" (the other side of "predestination") is fixed ("double predestination").
That, of course, doesn't solve the problem you bring up, does it? So let me first say this. Your concern is a "cooperative relationship" between God and sin. What I find is that sin, although God is opposed to it and it is indeed evil, has ... speaking carefully ... "positive use" for God. The easiest proof of this is in Acts 4:26-28. It says that the powers of the day perpetrated the most heinous sin of all time -- the murder of God's Son -- according to God's predestined plan.
As long as "foreordained" does not require "directly caused" (and it doesn't), I have no biblical nor philosophical problem with God "foreordaining Adam's fall and man's sin". Before He ever made Adam, He knew that Adam, of his own free will, would fail, and He planned in advance for the remedy for that Fall (Titus 1:1-3). He did it to further display His glory (because without sin, there are large components of God's glory that will be missed).
As an alternative, we have Man in general and Adam in particular overriding God's ordained plan. We won. We got the upper hand over God. His ultimate will did not occur. Sorry, God. (Loser!) I can't go there.
Maybe I need to be a little clearer on what I mean when I say "foreordain". I mean that God may or may not be the direct cause of what He foreordains. I mean that God looks at what He knows will happen and approves or disapproves. He predetermined that Judas, of his own free will, would betray Christ (Luke 22:22). He didn't make Judas do it. He knew Judas would and, as part of His plan, ordained that Judas would go ahead with his sin. No force. No coercion. But part of His plan.
In human terms, I can imagine a good chess player who will make moves that he knows will cause his opponent to move in response that will jeopardize his opponent's position. He "foreordains" it. He doesn't make his opponent move, but he knows he will, plans on it, and takes advantage of it when it happens. God would do this perfectly. In some cases He would directly cause things. In others He would simply allow. In all cases it would be part of His Ultimate Will and, thus, foreordained.
Stan, the controversy lies there. When you say things happen in God ultimate will.The people who use double election, says if this happens, it means that God has willed men to be damned, which goes directly against scripture. God, "who wills that all men come to a knowledge of the truth, and to be saved", 1 Timothy 2:4. God doesn't have two wills. There is one body, and one Spirit..called in one hope, one lord, one faith, one baptism, on Father (Ephesians 4:4-6). This right after Paul instructs us to have a unity of spirit. We are always called to have one mind and purpose. This means to have one will. Our whole goal is to partake of the divine nature, and to become more like God. Logically, if we are called to have one will, them God have one will. If God had 2 wills, that would imply that He is divided against Himself. Jesus stated that Satan cannot cast of Satan, because a house divided against itself cannot stand, Matthew 12:25, how much more God? I notice that you say that predestination is not election, and I agree, but your language comes close to implying that: most reformed theologists use your language to say God has willed men not to be saved. I know that you also say the process can be debated, but I feel the process is most important. Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked 'forsake' his ways and the unrighteous his thoughts; and let him return to the LORD, and he will have compassion on him, and to our God, he will abundantly pardon". This says the wicked has the opportunity, and CAN change his ways to be saved. The Reformed theologists says this is not so, that he was made with the intent for/ the purpose to be damned. God would not implore the wicked to turn from his ways if he could not be saved. That would 'logically', as reformed theologists like to say, be deceitful. I will wait for your response before I go further.
Of course, now you have a problem to deal with. God doesn't have two wills; He has only one. That will is that all men be saved. And ... not all men are saved. Therefore, God does not work all things after the counsel of His will (Eph 1:11) and God is not actually sovereign, but "along for the ride" so to speak. He wills that all men be saved but is either not able or not willing to accomplish His own will. On the other hand, Jude clearly says that some were "designated for condemnation", Peter assures us that some disobey the Word "as they were destined to do" and Jesus made it clear that some were to be His sheep and some were not. So, while you are trying to defend the Bible and God, you build a problem for which you haven't yet offered any solution. The Bible contradicts itself by saying that God wills all to be saved but some are designated for condemnation, and God is a failure in accomplishing His own will. Denying my position doesn't make yours any easier to explain.
Stan, upon reading of Romans chapters 5 and 11, is it possible that God has destined all men to disobedience, so that in the end He may have mercy on all, implying universal election/salvation? Why would it be beyond reason that eternal damnation is still possible for the perceivable non-elect of this life, to be elected at some point in a parallel eternity of life in the afterlife, to which they may also be raised, having spent a concurrent eternity in death/hell as the "old man." In other words, Jesus says, "Depart from me, I never knew you," to the old Adamic man, who receives his just damnation through being united with Christ in His death, when Christ descended into hell, taking the old Adamic man with him. Then, Jesus says, "Well done, my good and faithful servant," to the "new man" resurrected with Himself, and it is this man who inherits eternal life. Then double-predestination stands, not for two groups of people, but for every individual--destined both to eternal damnation and eternal life.
Given the vast numbers of warnings regarding Hell (in fact, I'm told that Jesus spoke more about Hell than Heaven), I cannot possibly fathom the possibility that, in the end, everyone (regardless of faith in Christ) would be saved. If that is fact, then the Bible need not be written, Christ need not have died, warnings need not have been made, and all of it becomes meaningless. "Don't worry. Everyone gets saved. Go on about your business."
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