I know ... I've already whined about not wanting any more politics at my house. I know ... I've already voted. But that post was intended as humor. Besides ... I have a scoop. So maybe some of my readers who haven't yet voted might benefit from this information.
Overheard: "Most of Europe wants America to elect Obama."
At work, we recently had a visitor from Europe. Of course, he was fascinated by all the political flurry, so he was discussing politics with some of our people. That's what he said. I found it interesting. My first thought? "Hmmm, so why would Europe want us to elect Obama?" There are possibilities. There are many differences in viewpoints among Americans when it comes to voting, but one thing that almost all Americans have in common when they vote is a central motivation: "What is best for America?" Sure, often it is more correctly, "What will benefit me more?" And obviously we are not in agreement on what is best for America. Still, it is a benefit for America that is in mind. So ... what about Europe? Are they thinking, "Obama will be the best for America"? I thought that would be a bit odd, considering the amount of anti-American sentiment abroad. Rather than guess at the answer, I simply asked him. He told me what I thought would be the answer.
According to this European, most of Europe wants America to elect Senator Obama because it will be to the greatest detriment to America. No, no, that's not quite what he said ... but it was close. Actually he said, "If Obama is president, America will diminish its worldwide influence. America will stop being the massive international presence that it is. Europe wants to do what they want to do without America's input, and they believe that Obama will do that."
This makes sense, given that nearly everyone admits that Senator McCain is the leader in foreign policy expertise. It makes sense given Senator Obama's desire to "talk" rather than act. It is my feeling that if, God forbid, we had another terrorist strike on our soil, we'd get a resounding message from President Obama. "Don't you guys do that again! I'll give you such a severe talking to! Don't think I won't!"
Maybe America thinks that a diminished America would be a good thing. I don't know. I can't actually imagine it. But those outside America would love to see the last superpower go away. Oh, we don't have to fall. No. Just ... be quiet. And given the apparent absence of the United States in any biblical prophecy of end times, I would think that this might be disturbing to American Christians. Given American pride, I would think that this would be disturbing to all Americans. Or maybe not. Maybe a silenced America is good for America? I can't see it.
11 comments:
I recently met a woman who spent some time earlier this year working on a project in Dubai. She is a first-generation American (parents immigrated from Holland around the time of WWII), and said she had expected some hostility from the people she was about to meet. To her surprise, she said that everyone she met, Indians, South Africans, Arabs, etc., all told her they like Americans very much and respect our country greatly. The whole trip made her very grateful to be an American, and changed somewhat her feelings about the US in general and the way the media here presents how we are viewed overseas. Perhaps it's not how we are viewed everywhere that's a problem, but rather mostly in Europe. ~ 10km
[sarcasm]How horrible those European countries are, wanting to govern themselves! What uppity schnooks to dare tell us we have no business telling them what to do! We’re Americans, dangnabit. When we tell some European country to “Jump”—the only words coming out of their Socialist mouth we want to hear is “How high?” When we want to invade foreign countries on false pretenses—who are they to question why we want to invade. We’re America. They should be sending us troops and be glad we asked their citizens to die beside us just for the privilege of saying, “I helped America get bogged down in a useless war.” [/sarcasm]
Stan, did you stop and bother to consider why there is Anti-American sentiment? Notice the drop in percentages since 2000.
Perhaps the reason Europeans would vote for Obama is that they want to rid themselves of the reason they don’t like America—the perception of George W. Bush and the similar stances of John McCain.
Naw—that can’t be it. They must want Obama ‘cause they hate us so much. Just like we hope for the worst leaders to be elected in Great Britain, Italy and France.
This was not your best writing.
Dagoods, either you completely missed my point or I completely missed yours. Europe wants us to elect Obama to diminish us. They would like the world power that is the United States to go away. They believe that electing Obama will be a step in that direction.
Now, perhaps you meant "and that's a good thing." It looked like you were saying "America ought to be diminished." Or maybe I just missed what you were trying to say.
Do we hope for "the worst leaders to be elected" in those other countries? No, we hope for leaders that will be friendly to us.
And, please note, I wasn't suggesting "Those evil Europeans." I was asking Americans who are about to vote, "Europe thinks Obama will diminish America. Do you want this?"
Stan, you talked to ONE person. One. What kind of “market sample” is “one”? If I told you, “I talked to one Christian and he said he wants to stone all homosexuals, so Christians want to stone all homosexuals”—would you be satisfied with my “market research”? Would you be satisfied I have accurately portrayed what ALL Christians think by asking ONE person?
I note you did not address the survey (more than one person) nor its tracking for why Europeans are now anti-American. Nor how to resolve the issue.
Even then, let’s look at what this one person said:
European: If Obama is president, America will diminish its worldwide influence. America will stop being the massive international presence that it is.
Do you understand they perceive our “presence” as being wrong? Evil? Immoral? It is NOT that America exerts her influence around the world--it is that this influence is currently perceived as wrong! Why is it perceived as wrong? What are Europeans determining they dislike about the America of 2008 that they did not about the America of 2000? What could “change”?
There’s a fellow who wrote a smart post about how often people don’t vote for a candidate as much as against the other candidate. Europeans strongly dislike George W. Bush. (Heck, with a 22% approval ratings, most Americans don’t like George W. Bush!) They may not be voting so much forObama as much as against what they see as a continuation of Bush. (Whether that is correct or not is not the point—it is what is perceived. If we want to actually address the issue, we have to deal with the people’s perceptions, whether true or not.)
Stan: Europe wants us to elect Obama to diminish us. They would like the world power that is the United States to go away.
Do you have any statistics, quotes, articles to back that up? Or is it unfounded assertion? Do they want “America” to go away or “Bush’s America” to go away?
And on a side note; every time I re-read this entry jars me a bit:
Stan: And given the apparent absence of the United States in any biblical prophecy of end times, I would think that this might be disturbing to American Christians.
Why? I would think an advent to the Second Coming of Christ would be welcome.
The apparent absence, by the way, is due to fact the authors lived in the First Century and didn’t know of Mesoamerica. Unsurprising in a human work, of course.
Well, of course it wouldn't be disturbing to American atheists. Duh! :)
It is, then, your argument that American presence is evil and should be diminished? (That is, I did correctly understand your point?)
One last time, I did not say Europe was wrong or America shouldn't be diminished. What I said was that there is a perception that Obama would cause that. In fact, I said, "Maybe America thinks that a diminished America would be a good thing." You seem to. So I've given you another reason to vote for Obama.
Stan,
Stan: One last time, I did not say Europe was wrong or America shouldn't be diminished. What I said was that there is a perception that Obama would cause that.
Yes, I know. And what I am asking, again, is what backing you have to make that claim. Other than talking to…er…one European?
Stan: It is, then, your argument that American presence is evil and should be diminished?
Stan, I have no clue what “presence” your lone European was discussing. Rather than take one person’s opinion and extrapolate this out to mean ALL Europeans, I looked up a survey to see what “presence” meant. What I read, when translating this over to “presence” were the following items:
1. America is doing a bad job in Iraq;
2. America is indifferent to what the rest of the world thinks of it;
3. America is racially divided;
4. America is dominated by “big business;”
5. America is obsessed with money.
Now let me go through these. Do I think the American presence in Iraq is immoral? Yes—we invaded a sovereign nation because of the whim of our President. We were wrong. Should our “presence” be diminished (reduced)? Absolutely.
Maybe you disagree and think we were correct (moral) invading Iraq, and our presence should NOT be diminished.
Do I think American indifference is immoral? Yep again. We should be vastly interested in the rest of the world, and our indifference should be diminished (reduced).
Maybe you disagree and are quite happy with our indifference.
Racial division—not necessarily immoral, but certain divisive. I would definitely want this division reduced.
Maybe you disagree and find our racial divisions quite acceptable. No diminishing or reduction necessary.
“Big Business.” All right, this one has me stumped. I don’t know what “big business” is meant, so I will have to completely pass on this one.
America’s obsession with money has curiously played out in the past 60 days, eh? I am not sure I would necessarily call it evil (greed is a part of human nature), but I certainly would want the obsession diminished.
Maybe you do not.
Instead of hearing one (1) person, extrapolating that to the entire continent of people, and then demanding I must support what he said—I looked at a survey to get the cross-cultural results. May not be perfect, but I submit a bit better than asking one (1) person.
And on their points…well…at least four out of five…I agree America’s “presence” should be diminished. You may not. *shrug*
Like I said, I've just given you more reasons to vote for Obama. What could be better than that?
I have such a hard time with "racial division" and "America" in the same breath. I do know that there are people who are racist (from all races), but if what we have these days is "racial division," then Obama cannot win ... right? I think not.
And I don't think the attack on Iraq was "moral," but I have a harder time pulling our troops out now and saying, "Oops! Too bad! You're on your own, guys."
American indifference ... what a concept. I suppose it's because every other civilized country spends a good part of its time governing from "what will the rest of the world think?", right? Or not. And it's really hard for me to think of how really rotten this country is when so many people from so many other countries are trying so hard to get in.
I do wonder what Obama will do ... for just about any of that stuff you listed. He will eliminate racism? He will make Americans care more about what other countries think? He will cure greed? Well, I suppose he can go a long way toward diminishing American greed by making it more unpleasant to make a lot of money, but that won't help the other 85% who are happy to have him take it away from the rich and give it to them. No, that doesn't seem to be working either.
Sigh. I'm always so negative.
I’ll ask again (for the third time)
What backing—statistics, articles, surveys—do you have that Europeans desire Obama to be president to “diminish America”? Other than one (1) person?
Without that support your entire premise flies apart.
Stan: I do wonder what Obama will do ... for just about any of that stuff you listed. He will eliminate racism? He will make Americans care more about what other countries think? He will cure greed?
Ahh…now that would have made a far better blog entry. Something along the lines of:
“Europeans dislike Americans for these five (5) reasons according to surveys. They would prefer Obama as president. What do they think President Obama will do to improve these areas?”
Instead you fell down the path of “They hate us. They must want President Obama out of spite. QED voting for Obama must be bad for America.”
(P.S., not that it is any of your business, but I have no intention of voting for Obama. Hence reasons for voting for him mean nothing to me. I responded because of your lack of perception of Europeans based upon one (1) person.)
No, it's not on the basis of one person. I thought that was the reason, too! :)
So ... what is your perspective as to why Europeans want us to elect Obama? Would it be your argument that they are deeply concerned for America and only want what's best for us? Or are they, just like everyone, primarily concerned with what would be best for them? And since, as you rightly pointed out, Europeans want to govern themselves (naturally) and, as you pointed out, there is a high level of anti-American feelings in Europe, it would seem rational that the goal is not "to make America a better place." The article to which you pointed me says, "Perhaps what these surveys indicate more than anything else is the approaching decline of a Superpower." If Europe really doesn't like America, it would seem natural that Europe would pull for the decline of America.
It seemed reasonable to me. Do you have another possibility? (I don't ask that as a challenge. I ask it with genuine curiosity.)
Stan: No, it's not on the basis of one person. I thought that was the reason, too! :)
That makes it more troubling. You had a certain perception of Europeans (regardless of the facts--don’t let THEM get in the way) and talked to one (1) European who said something you interpreted as confirming your preconception. The reason this is troubling is that it raises the question (to me) as to what the European actually said. We often can misinterpret other people’s statements. There have been occasions where you have quoted me, and it was neither what I actually said nor what I actually intended. Yet it fit your concept of what you thought I meant.
*shrug* No big deal—happens in conversations. Secondly, we often only hear what we want. If twelve Europeans said one thing, and one said what you already thought was true—it seems likely you would simply discount the 12, and say, “See? See? This European agrees with me.”
Stan: So ... what is your perspective as to why Europeans want us to elect Obama?
Thought I already indicated that—because they dislike George W. Bush, and link John McCain (Obama’s opponent) to George W. Bush. I presume you understand why Americans dislike Bush—is it so hard to understand Europeans dislike him for the same reasons?
Stan: Would it be your argument that they are deeply concerned for America and only want what's best for us?
Yep.
Stan: Or are they, just like everyone, primarily concerned with what would be best for them?
Why are those two mutually exclusive? Oh this horrible dichotomous thinking permeating Christian minds! I so wish I could reach in and yank it out! Have you thought how a strong economic America helps (by consumer buying) Europe? How America NOT going to unnecessary war in the hot zone of the Middle East might actually be better for the rest of the world? How less interest in money and more interest in helping others might help Europe AND help America?
Maybe…just maybe…it is possible for people to realize concern for another country can both benefit that other country AND benefit themselves at the same time.
Stan: If Europe really doesn't like America, it would seem natural that Europe would pull for the decline of America.
Then again, probably not in your world.
So tell me, Stan. Is this how you view the world? If you don’t “like” the government of another country—you “pull” for the decline of the entire country?
Stan: It seemed reasonable to me. Do you have another possibility? (I don't ask that as a challenge. I ask it with genuine curiosity.)
Yeah, out here in the real world we actually care about other humans. We care about other countries. We understand our actions have implications that may cause other citizens to dislike us. We weigh that dislike as compared to our gain. We attempt to communicate with others, explain our concern, and take their concerns to heart. We don’t brandish the sword, and then become befuddled others do not appreciate being bullied. Being lied to. Being brought into war. Having their own citizens killed.
We don’t come in with pre-conceived notions and then look only for justification for those notions—we talk to others who disagree with us and find out why they disagree with us. We attempt to re-evaluate our position in light of new information.
We try to better the human race.
But heck, you think this is a sign of the end-times. America being wiped out because Europeans wanted Obama President is a sure sign of the Second Coming of Jesus. The worse it gets—the better for Stan.
Why would you want to better the human race?
Wow! Sorry. I guess I pushed your buttons or something. I suppose that I should just be grateful that you vaguely suggested that there really is such a thing as a "Christian mind," since, in your view, it's a nonsensical belief in a non-existent, human-made creature.
Listen, I genuinely apologize. I thought we were having a friendly conversation about politics and the world. I even put in things like smiley faces because I thought we were having fun. I didn't realize you were going to war with me. I didn't mean to offend you into insults and cutting remarks. I'll not respond further. My mistake.
Post a Comment