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Monday, April 07, 2008

Ramifications

You have to wonder sometimes if the protests we lodge are actually saying what we intend them to say.

Consider, for instance, the popular bumper sticker "Stop the War!" What is left unsaid in that cry is huge. "Stop the war! Forget about the Iraqi people! Don't even think about the horrible effects that such a radical action in this tenuous situation will have on public perception, the people of the region, and our own national security. Don't think about what that says to the troops who were there to do a job and not allowed to finish it. And don't think about the fact that it would make all the loss of life up until now pointless. Just pull out our troops." Or how about those pro-choice stickers? (The one that nearly made me cry was this one: "6 billion miracles is enough.") One reads "Keep your laws off my body" and you have to wonder about the logical extension: "I have the right to choose to do whatever I want with my body. If that includes taking drugs or throwing it off buildings, so be it. If that includes throwing it in front of your car on the freeway ... it's my body! If that includes killing babies in there, so be it. My only concern is my rights, not the rights of children! Keep your laws off my body."

I wonder sometimes if this isn't often the case. Even Christians make arguments without considering the ramifications. For instance, if we argue that we must "avoid all appearance of evil", the logical conclusion is that we must avoid doing just about anything at all because just about everything will appear evil to someone. (As an example, there are those claiming that simply being a Christian is evil. Do we stop being a Christian to avoid "the appearance of evil"?) Too often we will make assertions that end up saying things we never intended.

I have to wonder if this isn't often the case in the Calvinism/Arminianism debate. Claims are made that, frankly, carry quite harmful ramifications. Consider some of the following attacks I've seen lately.

"God did not ordain sin." This is very popular, even a certainty to many. Now, consider the effects if such is true. If God did not ordain sin, then something happened that God did not ordain. If something happened that God did not ordain, then other things can happen that He does not ordain. If anything happens that God does not allow, then He is not actually sovereign, but, at best, only mostly sovereign. And you can never really know if something that happens to you happens because a loving God allowed it for your best interest or it slipped by a negligent God.

"Christ's death and resurrection paid for all sin." It's a nice-sounding thought and even seems biblical. "He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for His own sins and then for those of the people, since He did this once for all when He offered up Himself" (Heb. 7:27). "See? He died once for all." Here's the problem. If all sin is paid for, then on what basis can God justly punish sin? If payment is already applied, then payment cannot be demanded. "Oh, no, it's not applied," some assure me. "It depends on their acceptance of the payment." That would resolve the problem of God's demand for payment, but it doesn't resolve the question because an unapplied payment is not a payment and it cannot be said that Christ paid for all sin but didn't pay for all sin. The statement, then, creates a problem for God. "Christ paid for it all ... but God will ignore that payment until you agree to it. Oh, but, He's God, so He can do what He wants, even if it isn't just."

"It is God's will that everyone be saved." Can there be any question here? It's right there in plain Scripture. How can this assertion be anything but true, and what possible ramifications can there be? Well, first the Scripture: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). How can we even question it? It says the Lord is, and I quote, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." The reason anyone (like me) would even question such a passage is the simple (and biblical) fact that not everyone will come to repentance. Why is that a problem? Well, if God wills something, what is the first certainty you can state? "It will happen." So if God indeed wills that none should perish, then none will perish. If any perish, then God did not will that none should perish. So the first problematic ramification to the assertion is that if God wills it and it doesn't happen, God is not sovereign. "No, no," it might be replied, "that 'will' isn't like a decree. That 'will' is like a desire or wish." That's fine, and I would indeed agree that God wishes that everyone be saved, but that's not the same thing as claiming that it's God's will. God may wish for something that He decides not to accomplish because He has something better in mind. God, for instance, takes no delight in the death of the wicked ... but He still does it. He wishes for something else, but He still does it. So if we move from "will" to "wish", we've moved from any objection to the Reformed concept that God chooses to save some and not others.

Choices and consequences ... life is made of choices and consequences. Some of the things we choose to say or believe have unintended consequences that we haven't considered. In a "sound bite" age such as ours, this likelihood is even more common, since context isn't often offered and commentary is rare. I suppose, then, that it's up to us to carefully examine the Scriptures and consider the implications or that which we affirm. Sometimes it will change what we affirm. Sometimes it will force us to change other thinking. Always it's a good idea to think these things through.

6 comments:

DagoodS said...

I must say I enjoy your writing. I find myself nodding my head in agreement. (Although that may not be a good thing, considering my atheism. *wink*)

I agree about the Logical Problem of Evil (where does immorality come from in an exclusive monotheistic system, if not from God?) I also agree certain authors of the New Testament books would lead to Limited Atonement.

I do have a question on the last point. If it is God’s desire that all be saved; what is presenting a God from having what it wants?

Stan said...

A compliment from an atheist is still a compliment. Thanks.

On the last question, the thing that would prevent God from getting what He wants would be ... God. Let me try a human example. A good father would want his kids to live comfortable, pain-free lives. That would be great. However, a wise father would know that those kids need to experience discomfort in life to live truly rewarding lives. So a wise father will allow pain in the lives of his children -- even though he might not want them to suffer -- because it is in their best interest.

Of course, I don't happen to believe that God is anthropocentric like most people believe, so there will, as always, be problems with examples where God is concerned. But hopefully you get the idea that it is possible for God to have a "wish" that is overcome by a greater "wish" on His part. (By the way, I'm also not a believer in "absolute omnipotence" -- a God who can do absolutely anything at all. I consider that nonsense. If that helps you understand me any better.) Hopefully that helps answer your question.

DagoodS said...

Stan,

Again, I find myself in agreement with much of what you say. Albeit, I do not think we have a choice but to use anthropomorphic (human) terms when speaking about a God—we have no other relational base by which to do so.

This does, of course, raise the question whether the authors of 1 Timothy and 2 Peter were likewise using very human excuses to justify their depiction of a God to explain to a questioning human audience. In other words—how do we determine when a human depiction of a God is just that—human, and how do we tell whether it is accurate? Were the authors trying to explain aware God’s failure to appear again within a short period as expected?

And you are correct, as humans our desires are limited by either physical inability OR we voluntarily restrain them by a greater desire. No how much I desire it, it is physically impossible for me to eat 50 pounds of chocolate within one hour. While it is physically possible for me to eat 5 pounds of chocolate within one hour, I may restrain myself from a greater desire to not be sick, or a greater desire to not have to fight off all those calories.

The first question we should ask - is God’s desire that all humans be saved limited by physical inability, or restrained by a greater desire? Each answer only creates greater headaches, and more hypothesis’s.

The problem I see is the perpetual one when it comes to theism, and Christianity in particular. A problem develops (here it was the fact God was to return “soon” and “soon” wasn’t happening) so a human (authors of 1 Timothy and 2 Peter) offer what seems to be a reasonable solution if God were a human, only creating greater questions and more problems to the astute student.

Inevitably we reach the only possible answer, that being “We can’t know, due to the inability to verify what a God does.” Which brings us back to the beginning—why not say it in the first place? Why start proposing solutions, if the reality is we never knew anything about it from the start?

Stan said...

Absolutely, we can only talk about God in the terms we understand, and, bottom line, the finite will not be able to completely comprehend the infinite.

That being said, as a skeptic, it is necessary for you to hold to the position that we're just guessing. I, on the other hand, am a believer and don't have to. While I think it is unwise to make wild guesses, I also don't think that it's always as mysterious as you are suggesting. Rom. 9:22 tells us the competing desire on God's part. I don't have to make it up or venture into conjecture. God wants to make His wrath and power known.

And I don't see that Paul or Peter needed to make up answers. Being a believer, first, I conclude that they had divine input. Second, being a Preterist, I believe that there was a real, "soon" answer to the prophecies they were told would happen soon -- specifically in 70AD. But, then, being a believer makes some things easier for me than for you, eh? :)

Of course, bottom line, I'm not sure what you would suggest. You assume we're making things up, but you deny the possibility that there is a God. Now, if there is a God and we can know some things about Him, what could we say that would satisfy you? ;)

DagoodS said...

Stan,

I agree with (a majority by now, perhaps) Bible scholars who are persuasive 1 Timothy was not written by Paul, and neither Peterine Epistle was written by Peter. They were written in the late First/early Second Century, addressing 3rd and 4th generational Christian problems. Including the lack of return of God. So Preterism doesn’t save ya. *grin*

This blog entry was about ramifications. One of the results skeptics see is the claim the Christian God (like humans) has competing desires, and is left unsatisfied. The question remains—what are those competing desires, and what prohibits a God from having what it desires?

If God’s greater desire is to exhibit his wrath--why must that trump his desire for all to be saved? What ramifications are you implying from that? (Rhetorical question.)

Stan: Now, if there is a God and we can know some things about Him, what could we say that would satisfy you? ;) [emphasis in the original]

Easy. Show me something different. Something that is more likely to NOT be human-made. Some consistent method whereby we can determine this set of words has a divine attribute, and this set does not. This set of characteristics is divine; this set is not. Something different.

I don’t mean to belabor you with a skeptical standpoint; I understand this is not your blog’s intention. I was simply curious what you would say was the competing desire or limitation prohibiting a God from having what it wants. I enjoy the conversation.

P.S. I apologize for the mis-words in the last comment. My typing on a laptop is atrocious.

Stan said...

Dagoods, I want to start by saying that it is always a pleasure to dialog with someone who does so pleasantly ... as you have done.

The problem, you see, is that I can only explain to you what I believe. I cannot persuade you to believe it. I understand that. I believe what I believe on grounds that I believe to be rational and persuasive (in that they persuaded me), but I cannot impart that to you. So where we end up is this: You believe modern scholars who discard the Bible as it has traditionally been viewed, and I believe scholars who accept the Bible as it has traditionally been viewed. So my argument from Scripture is basically meaningless to you, and your argument from modern scholars is basically meaningless to me. I have higher regard for the folks, for instance, in the 3rd and 4th centuries who were closer to the question than those in the 21st century as to the authenticity and authorship of Timothy and Peter. Also, there is this little problem that I believe in God and, therefore, the supernatural which you, on the other hand, must dismiss. (No insult intended. I just mean that we're coming at it from opposite ends.)

So if God desires to demonstrate eternal wrath against sin, it seems patently obvious that He can't both save everyone and punish some eternally. Just won't work. Not even for God.