Go Figure
The Antwerp Zoo has banned a woman for loving a chimp. Yes, go back and read that slowly. Adie is heartbroken because for the last 4 years she has visited every week and she and Chita, a 38-year-old chimpanzee, have exchanged blown kisses. The zoo says it's not good for the chimp on a social level, and "Adie doesn't understand what she is doing wrong." And you thought "love is love."
Like I Said
I warned before ... mandates are coming. You thought you lived in a country whose first identification is "liberty," but it's not so anymore. The president mandated all federal workers get vaccinated. The DOD mandated it for all military. New York City requires it for all school district workers. And so on. Now Biden is urging all employers to enact mandates or make the unvaccinated "face strict requirements." Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Based on misleading, confusing, and questionable information we're being told we need to surrender our liberty ostensibly for our safety (while more and more "fully vaccinated" people get sick). The World Health Organization is calling for a delay in boosters first to get more shots to under-vaccinated countries and second to slow the mutation that vaccination causes. Welcome to 21st century America, where we, like sheep, are expected to roll up our sleeves and bow to our masters who know very little but, we're sure, they know it quite well.
Meanwhile, Delta Air Lines has listened to the president. Either get vaccinated or pay $200 more a month for healthcare. If it violates your principles to get the vaccine, you will pay dearly for your principles. As for me, I won't be flying Delta anytime soon ... just on principle.
Trust the Science
Oregon has the first state to require face masks outdoors "even if they have been vaccinated." All that they've told us about the effectiveness of this vaccine calls to mind the line from The Avengers: "Puny god."
Dirty Minds
Anyone familiar with the band Nirvana will likely recall the album cover for Nevermind, the iconic baby in the water reaching for a dollar bill. That baby was Spencer Eldon, now 30, who is suing Cobain's estate and anyone else connected for child pornography and sexually exploiting him. He claims "lifelong damage." A little paragraph lower down in the story says, "Elden previously recreated the cover to celebrate the 15th and 25th anniversaries of the album's release. In 2016, he told The New York Post he volunteered to do his latest iteration of the cover naked, but the photographer 'thought that would be weird.'" Sounds a lot like "I approve" right up until someone refused to give him more money. And what kind of mind thinks of baby photos as "child porn"? And, of course, if it is and he possesses and distributes it himself, isn't he guilty of the same? Twisted thinking.
COVID Casualty
"COVID-related" is a term that is hard to define. As a cartoon I saw said, the doctor told the patient, "I think you're problem is the arrow in your eye, but I'll test for COVID." We know that COVID has had a large impact, but we aren't as clear on the impact of the COVID prevention. A story out of CNN reports on the academic cost of avoiding a pandemic. Scores in reading and math have dropped between 3 and 12%. It appears as if taking kids out of classrooms to "protect" them does its own version of harm.
Filed Under "What Could Go Wrong?"
A video surfaced of the Taliban "test driving" UH-60 Blackhawk in Kandahar. According to the story, along with the helicopter, the Taliban has "seized control of up to 200,000 firearms, 20,000 Humvees and hundreds of aircraft that were financed by the US for the Afghan army." Well ... didn't see that coming. I don't remember "Let's arm the Taliban" as one of Biden's talking points.
Of course, the Taliban is proving that it will be "business as usual" in Afghanistan, meaning more oppression and less freedom, despite their assurances to the contrary. (Did you even know that music was forbidden in Islam?)
I Don't Even ...?
I guess this would be filed under "What could go wrong?" Apparently the U.S. gave the Taliban a list of Americans and Afghan allies to evacuate. "'Basically, they just put all those Afghans on a kill list,' said one defense official," the story said. I can't imagine who thought that was a good idea
Cancel Culture on Steroids
More under "I don't even ...," Blizzard has a Western game called Overwatch with some characters named after real-life Blizzard staff members. Now one of them left the company over sexual harassment allegations, so Blizzard finds it necessary to change the name of the fictious cowboy character "to something that better represents what Overwatch stands for." The ultimate cancel culture. "Not only do we want this person allegedly involved in some bad stuff gone; we want any reference to his name eliminated as well, even if it's fictitious."
This is what I've been talking about
The governor of Illinois has mandated masks and vaccines. "Illinois will require all eligible students and school employees to be vaccinated and re-instituted an indoor mask mandate." Not unexpected, but the story goes on to say that the policy was "spurred largely by the Delta variant of the virus and increasing reports of 'breakthrough' cases in which people already vaccinated get infected." Hang on! If there are "increasing reports of 'breakthrough' cases" among the vaccinated, then how is vaccination indicated? "This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated," the governor said, but the impetus is "breakthrough" cases. Is no one thinking this through?
What's Yours is Mine
Biden's plan for tax increase is in trouble. Midterm elections are coming and Democratic candidates on razor-thin edges are concerned that increasing taxes will damage their possibility of winning. Meanwhile, progressives want to completely rewrite the tax code to fund social programs and address the wealth gap. "Income inequality is a big problem." Hold on a moment. "Income inequality is a big problem"? How? "Well, it is not fair to have the wealth of a nation unequally distributed." Really? I suppose the statement is true if we're eliminating capitalism, wiping out any sort of incentive to work hard and get ahead, and wholly switching over to socialism. Is that the goal? Is it a moral evil for one person to earn more than another (the definition of "income inequity")? Or are we simply looking at the standard, classical "I want what you have, so you must give it to me"?
From A to Bee
The Bee offered its standard fare of news-related satire this week, like the one about the Taliban opening a chain of U.S. Army surplus stores or the snide headline about Biden being praised for his rescue efforts to save a kid he pushed down a well. They might be banned from the world for their story about the Dominion voting machine regretting the 50,000 extra votes it gave to Biden. Ant they also had a story for fun that I suspect is actually nearly true. It was about a study that found a connection between the frequency of checking the news with the intensity of longing for Jesus's return. Now that actually rings true.
31 comments:
Go Figure
What was that about a slippery slope fallacy?
Like I Said
The result of "leadership" resulting from choices made during the last election.
Trust the Science
Same as the previous.
Dirty Minds
An obvious money grab.
COVID Casualty
A great joke. Even without seeing the cartoon, I laughed. But it bears repeating: The result of "leadership" resulting from choices made during the last election.
Filed Under "What Could Go Wrong?"
I Don't Even ...?
Once again. The question now is, how's that conscience decision working out? There's nothing that's happened since January 20 which should be surprising to anyone. The horror of this most recent decision is merely one of a myriad ways this moron could prove who the proper choice was last November. It keeps getting worse and worse and there's no rationalizing election decisions which contributed to it all.
Cancel Culture on Steroids
Apparently they stand for nonsense.
This is what I've been talking about
I have to say, reelecting his predecessor would not necessarily have resulted in better. He and this guy are not much different, except fiscally Rauner leaned more starboard. Other than that...two bozos.
Leaving the state for good in about six months.
What's Yours is Mine
Leftist tax policy has always been a matter of pandering to the covetous. That's why I oppose them in whatever way is available. Like not denying my vote to better options over insignificant things like tweets and such.
From A to Bee
The Bee. Always nailing it like no other can. I may have to subscribe.
Question: "The question now is, how's that conscience decision working out?"
Answer: Exactly as God intended. I'm so glad I don't have to plan to violate my conscience in order to get the "proper outcome." I've got God to lean on.
So, you can do anything you like under the pretense of "conscience" and not worry about responsibility for the consequences of your actions, insisting it's all as God intended. That's amazing.
So you assume that "Since Stan didn't vote for Trump, we're all going down the toilet"? Nonsense, of course. For too many reasons. But I'm fascinated by your position. Conscience is irrelevant; outcome is all that matters. If someone stands on what is right and it doesn't work out well, they are evil. I would contend that whatever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23), and to go against Scripture or conscience is neither right nor safe. But that's just me, standing on silly principle rather than "the ends justifies the means".
"So you assume that "Since Stan didn't vote for Trump, we're all going down the toilet"? Nonsense, of course."
Not an assumption, but a definite reality...except it is worded wrongly. It should read "since Stan joined all those who didn't vote for Trump, the nation now suffers as so easily predicted it would".
You also misstate my position which had been clarified more than once. I voted my conscience as well. I stood on what is right and my choice was guided primarily by my faith and understanding of my duty to God and how He wants me to treat my fellow man. Trump was always irrelevant except that his track record proved his worthiness of a second term. But not "because Trump", but because his record versus the alternatives offered and the consequences attached to either. Those consequences are what does or doesn't please and serve God, not Trump. Voting for Trump was NEVER a vote against Scripture, but it WAS a vote against conscience given the clear potential for harm, and now as we can clearly see from the past seven months and past seven days or so, the harm was vastly understated.
So I remain fascinated by YOUR position and how your "principle" allows for so much guaranteed harm to your fellow Americans while still insisting you're right with God. What verse covers that?
First, I am guessing you haven't read the 14th chapter of Romans. You have decided to condemn me for beliefs not commanded in Scripture -- how I should vote -- where Paul clearly says, "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Rom 14:4) (I recommend you read the chapter. It is absolutely pertinent here.)
Second, apparently your belief is that everyone who did not vote for Trump did so in ordere to harm the nation. This is why I always held that Dan's favorite "Harm theory" for morality is false. You see what's happening in America as a violation of God because of "guaranteed harm to your fellow Americans." I see the ultimate evil that ever occurred, the murder of the Son of God -- definite harm -- as the ultimate good. We humans are so horribly bad at recognizing what is good and bad that I think that "Harm theory" concept doesn't work.
Third, I live in a different world than you do. I live in a world governed by God. We've discussed this at length in prior discussions and I see God as absolutely Sovereign and you ... don't. Fine. But if God is as Sovereign as I read Scripture to say He is, then none of this is a surprise to Him and none of this is a problem to Him and He uses all of this to work together for good. Scripture specifically says, "There is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." (Rom 13:1). So in my world I trust God even if circumstances look bleak.
Finally, yours is an outcome-based perspective. If it looks like "guaranteed harm to your fellow Americans," then it could not be God's plan and no one with a right thinking conscience could have gone this way. I have no doubt you voted your conscience, but you're quite sure that the only right way would be to have everyone vote your conscience as well. It would be a violation of Scripture (Rom 14:23) and conscience for me to do so. I'm sorry that I'm not as smart or genuinely good as you are. I'm stuck with my own beliefs, meager as they are.
On a side note, those that didn't vote for Trump would not have been enough to sway the tide. Far too many that did vote for him the first time, didn't the second. My conscience is clear because I voted for someone I would have liked to see take office, and because God put in office who He saw fit to put there. If He didn't want Biden to be President, it wouldn't have happened. It did, so it must be His will, and it is good in His eyes.
First,
"You have decided to condemn me for beliefs not commanded in Scripture..."
Are we not commanded to love our neighbor, or is that just a suggestion? The harm promoted by the Democrat Party against the unborn alone is clearly contrary to that. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any plank in their platform that aligns with that command...and that allows there may be some sincere desire that one of them will.
And I don't condemn. It's more of a "told you so", as the harm that will befall the nation was easily seen by allowing Biden to win the presidency. There was nothing about Trump that was so bad which can rationalize allowing Biden to win. To deny Trump because of his sins means you should never vote because not a single candidate is without sin. And while one candidate may indeed be a greater sinner than another (who are you to condemn?), one still must consider the consequences, which were far easier to weigh in the last election than in the one in 2016, when Trump was known best for his "peculiarities". But with fours years in the books, and in the aggregate a very beneficial to the nation four years it was, the difference between his presidency and what hoped to replace him was stark as night and day.
So this was a lesson about how a Christian should vote...not "for Trump", but for better or worse, good over evil or for the lesser of two of them. Third party votes are not votes at all if they have no chance of winning...which none did in the least...and the more votes for Trump the harder it would have been for Biden to win legitimately or otherwise and all the bad that was without a doubt to come with it would have been prevented.
"Second, apparently your belief is that everyone who did not vote for Trump did so in ordere to harm the nation."
I'll resist responding as if this is the desperate attack it is and simply correct the clear falsehood: My conviction regarding the reality is that everyone who did not vote for Trump is complicit in the harm doing so has brought about, regardless of the intention behind withholding that vote. This is especially true given how obvious it was that such harm would indeed befall the nation. The only question was one of manifestation...what it would look like...and degree. I'd say it's been pretty severe all around. It didn't have to be and shouldn't have happened at all. The reasons Trump failed to get more support...enough to even thwart the many ways Dems cheated...continue to elude me, aside from irrelevant aspects such as his manner, his tweets and his personal life. I mean, it couldn't have been over shower heads, could it?
"You see what's happening in America as a violation of God because of "guaranteed harm to your fellow Americans.""
No. I see it only as a violation of America and that's what voting is meant to resolve...to alter the course of the nation, to bring about more beneficial changes. Yet when the obvious is guaranteed and it ain't good for they neighbor, how one can not do what was necessary to prevent it and justify it with Scripture seems no better than those who believe they can do whatever they want because they believe in Jesus Who already died for their sins.
"Third, I live in a different world than you do."
No, you don't, and what follows is just you making up stories, such as...
"...I see God as absolutely Sovereign and you ... don't."
That's completely untrue and I've made that more than clear many times in our discussions on His Sovereignty. Indeed, I've insisted there's no way He CAN'T be Sovereign always, even if He gives us Free Will. So you can cross that off your list of where Art disagrees with you once and for all.
"But if God is as Sovereign as I read Scripture to say He is, then none of this is a surprise to Him and none of this is a problem to Him and He uses all of this to work together for good."
Again, this is perfectly irrelevant to the issue of responsibility and more rationalizing.
"So in my world I trust God even if circumstances look bleak."
Again, we live in the same world, especially given I'm in agreement with this statement as well. The difference is that I don't use that as an excuse to avoid the hard choices which we as inhabitants of this fallen world must face as Christians. It's not as if the consequences of a Biden win was totally unknown to either of us. Only the manner in which the train wreck would take shape was. But suffering of our neighbors was a foregone conclusion BECAUSE of his policies and agenda. He may as well have run on "let's make it hurt again" as a slogan, it was so obvious. And you allowed it to happen with that understanding when you had the chance to help prevent it in the only way it could've been.
"I see the ultimate evil that ever occurred, the murder of the Son of God -- definite harm -- as the ultimate good. We humans are so horribly bad at recognizing what is good and bad that I think that "Harm theory" concept doesn't work."
This is world class cheap rationalization. I'm insulted you actually believe it has merit with regard to how we live as Christians in this fallen world. That second sentence is akin to Dan suggesting we can't know God's Will. Of course we can recognize what is harmful in public policy and particularly in the agenda of the Democratic Party and find no equal in that of the GOP. It isn't difficult at all. And the consequences we're seeing over the past seven months is testament to that reality.
"Finally, yours is an outcome-based perspective."
I don't even know what you mean by this as what follows it doesn't describe me at all.
"If it looks like "guaranteed harm to your fellow Americans," then it could not be God's plan and no one with a right thinking conscience could have gone this way."
But I'm not dealing in terms of "God's plan". God's plan is God's plan and I have no power over it whatsoever. I'm dealing in terms of God's Will with regard our behavior on this fallen earth, which involves how my actions impact my fellow man...that I serve Him by loving my neighbor. I don't see how I'm loving my neighbor by wasting my voting privilege in a way which results in harm to my neighbor. Maybe you can explain how you think you're covered from liability.
I point again to the record of Trump's presidency and how in the aggregate it was especially beneficial for the nation (in ways far surpassing anything the previous four administrations have provided...pretending they all provided something), versus what the most likely usurper (Biden) was sure to impose upon us all. I mean, you can ignore all that has befallen us over the past seven months and focus on everything prior to Election Day in November 2020 and the vast difference between the two...with regard to its impact on thy neighbor...and it could not be more stark and more absolute in its coming to pass one way or the other. It was, simply and obviously, a choice between good things for Americans and really bad things for America and your vote allowed the latter, and it could only be dumb luck and an honest Democratic Party that could've prevented it. There was no other "conscience" vote possible that I can see and that you've been able to explain...which I still wish you would try to provide. Seriously. I'd be in your debt if you gave it a really good try. So please...how was a vote for Trump a violation of Scripture and/or your conscience? (The question alone screams how off point it is)
"Are we not commanded to love our neighbor?"
You know we are. But I am not commanded to love my neighbor as you see fit. More importantly, I'm commanded to love God first.
You dismiss "tweets" as if they're harmless. Jesus said what comes out of a man's mouth comes from the heart. Combining, then, his tweets and his words, the heart of the man I was supposed to vote for was ... not a pretty picture. He lauded sexual immorality and talked the talk of a megalomaniac. In practice, he had no concern for God's creation but was only concerned with big business and making money. That, in the view of many, makes him laudable. I mean, after all, the economy did improve. What could be more "good" than more money? (To be honest, I didn't see any more money during Trump's reign than any other time, but that's beside the point.)
But, I've explained all this (and more) in the past when the topic was closer to being an issue. The truth is not that I haven't offered a valid explanation. The truth is I haven't offered an explanation that you accept. That's fine. I'm still standing on Romans 14 ground. No Scripture demands that I vote for Trump. Scripture does demand that what is not of faith is sin. Since not voting for Trump is not a violation of Scripture and voting for him would violate my convictions, it would be a sin for me to do it and a violation of Scripture for me to do it.
You prefer not to deal with "God's plan." I prefer to live there.
I guess we, as a nation, have moved from not negotiating with terrorists, to actually arming terrorists. That is quite a change. I fail to see how the Biden administration failed to take into account the massive amount of hardware that would be left for the Taliban or other terrorist groups.
You put your faith in the electoral process to slow the corruption of our society. But the choice of President is only a reflection of the society that President comes from. We Need to be focused on living in our Christian communities that will be the only means of refecting change in our society, not who the President is. Christianity had already lost the political war. We need to shore up our Christian communities and prepare for the impending assault.
"You put your faith in the electoral process to slow the corruption of our society. But the choice of President is only a reflection of the society that President comes from."
The irony is that both you and Stan are doing the exact same thing by NOT voting for someone like Trump and justify it by doing so being "a matter of conscience". Yet, the question still stands for both of you: How's your conscience handling the consequences of your decision.
I reiterate that I view voting as if mine is the deciding vote...the tie breaker which determines the path our nation will take. I one representation of my Christian response to the world in which I live, and I regard the actions of my choice being elected as my responsibility. By that same token, I could not honestly pretend the blame for consequences are not mine simply because I didn't vote, or voted for a third party candidate who had no chance of winning, which is the same as not voting...a truly wasted vote. This responsibility is no different than any other manifestation of "love they neighbor" given how impacted my neighbor will be from the actions and policies of whomever is elected.
Now, we see all manner of negative consequences flowing from the sad and preventable result of the last election. "God is Sovereign" is no excuse for the failures of those who allowed what we're seeing now by their choice last November.
Much of what we're seeing had been brewing for some time. But no one who pays attention can pretend Trump, for all his flaws of character, did not indeed slow the speed of corruption in our society. That's a nonsensical position. The concept of separation of church and state is a restriction on government, not the people and there's no "living in our Christian communities" and denying how important our roles as citizens in choosing presidents is part of that. We didn't lose the political war, but you're certainly keen on abdicating any responsibility. You're surrendering and then pretending we can defend against "the impending assault". As always, the best defense is a strong offense and we're to remain engaged in this fallen world to influence to the best of our ability. That will always include choosing the lesser of two evils if one isn't honest enough to regard one of them as having proven himself as clearly the better of the two.
And you say you believe in a Sovereign God.
I do, and nothing I've said above contradicts it. You seem to suggest our role as Christians is to sit back and let the poop hit the fan because...you know...God is Sovereign, it's all in His hands and we've no responsibility for the consequences of our inaction.
So, if all our good deeds are as filthy rags, how is allowing the greater of two evils acceptable because your conscience won't allow you to vote for the lesser, when the lesser had a track record of improving the lives of his people (kinda his job, whereas our spiritual condition is not) and the greater had 47 years of wasted time? Tell me again (or rather, at last) how you think you've served Him by that choice.
My conscience is fine. The wanton murder of the unborn thrived under the last few presidents. The growth and acceptance of LGBTQ has expanded under the last few presidents. Afghanistan was inevitable, Trump had even continued the process of US drawdown from there. He made his own promises about getting out of there. But to me, all these problems aren't laid at the feet of the President, but at the moral quality of the people. Without a moral society, our system of government can not stand. And no President will change that.
You wrote to David, "You're surrendering and then pretending we can defend against 'the impending assault'." It was that to which I responded, "And you say you believe in a Sovereign God." I don't suggest that our task is to sit back and do nothing. Never have. I suggest we need to do what God commands explicitly or what we understand Him to command implicitly and allow the outcome as God plans. I'm thinking of that biblical bad guy, Jesus, who, instead of doing the right thing that everyone expected Him to do and go heal His friend, Lazarus, He just hung around a few extra days until the poor man died. "How's following your conscience working for you now, Jesus?" Fine. Just fine.
I contend that we need to do what we believe is right. We need to do it well-informed (especially biblically), following explicit commands, for instance, without hesitation, but also doing what our consciences dictate in the absence of explicit commands. I think Romans 14 is absolutely clear on this. You have decided that what David and I must do is to violate what we understood to be right in favor of what you understood to be right. Paul says that for me that would be sin. So I didn't do it. I'm sorry you find that unacceptable. I'm sorry that you think that Christians have no recourse against "the impending assault." I'm sorry that I am unable to bend my conscience to your will. (And, trust me, you're not the only will I was supposed to bend to.) I'm stuck with my beliefs. And I trust God for an outcome that will be both good and unexpected. Because I worship a God who intends good even when all the rest intend evil.
David,
"My conscience is fine."
Clearly. And clearly that's true of Stan as well, but what follows the above quote is wholly irrelevant as to your choices regarding elections. It is my understanding of Scripture that you won't be judged by what others do, but only by what you do. Thus, how many more homosexuals there are, how many more unborn are murdered by their parents...none of that matters with regard to the issue on the table, which is whether or not you vote, for whom and why. It is clear there is a vast difference between what's happened in the last seven months as compared to the previous four year term of Trump, those additional murders and homosexuals notwithstanding.
Even more true is that I've not made any statement which suggests an individual's personal vote is going to alter any of that in a significant manner...except that I contend any vote which moves the needle in the proper direction at all is significant, and more so when added to all others which do the same. The candidate might be imperfect, as I understand Scripture to imply is fact regarding all of them. But you're going to reject a president/candidate with a record of moving that needle in the same direction as well, even if not perfectly as if you have any right to demand such perfection.
The moral quality of our culture is horrible. There's no denying that. But the fact has no relevance as to why we vote, and a haughty, holier-than-thou self-sanctimony withholding of one's vote for the only choice that moves that needle at all in the proper direction is no different than voting for the guy who adds to the moral deviancy of our culture. So then, my question is, how can your conscience be clear when your action results in what was so clear the only result possible by NOT voting for the imperfect guy who nonetheless pushed us in a better direction as a nation? When will I get an answer to that as yet unanswered question?
Oh, and by the way, I am not looking for any president to resolve our moral issues in this country. That's our job, so all you said in your last comment is, as I said, irrelevant.
Stan,
"You wrote to David, "You're surrendering and then pretending we can defend against 'the impending assault'." It was that to which I responded, "And you say you believe in a Sovereign God.""
The connection is no less unclear. One can't defend by surrendering, so I have no idea what your question could mean. God is Sovereign regardless of what we do. I've been really, really clear and consistent on this. God's Sovereignty doesn't mean we do nothing and while you say you don't advocate for doing nothing, you seem to advocate doing that which accomplishes nothing but allowing the negative consequences to prevail.
So here we're dealing with doing what God commands "implicitly", since He hasn't made His feelings known on the political situation in America. This is no Lazarus situation, whereby we can let the poop hit the fan knowing we have the power to raise the nation from the dead. Indeed, our failure results in many dead and has here. How can you conscience be fine...just fine? Sure. We can speculate that deaths would occur under Trump. They certainly had during his term in office. How many were directly the result of his policies and which ones?
I get you believe in having done what you believe is right. I'm just not getting how you do given the outcome of the Biden victory last November and the subsequent poop-storm which has followed ever since...a storm which was easy to forecast. How can voting for someone unlikely to win to address that storm be guided by your conscience? How can any candidate possibly be so holy as to not conflict with your conscience?
I believe that we are not so different in our beliefs, yet we reached different conclusions regarding for whom we voted. This is clear, yet how that's possible is not. I continue to contrast the track records of the candidates. I continue to point out how that forecast was so clear. I'm still not getting just what it was about Trump which made it OK in your mind to invite all that has come to pass in the last seven months when there was no way it could not be as it has been.
I trust God as well. I many not understand how His plan is unfolding and how whatever suffering experienced is part of it and to my benefit. I'm not talking about any of that, and I don't see, nor have you explained, how it should matter in making decisions of such great importance and impact on our fellow man. God's used low character people before, but somehow you think He wasn't using Trump? You're position contradicts itself constantly and I'm just trying to get how you resolve those contradictions. Any chance you'll ever do that?
How can my conscience be clear? 1) I did exactly what I believed God required of me. To violate THAT would violate my conscience. 2) I don't blame myself for Biden's victory, Trump's defeat, or the things that are going on in this country. My vote (for or against) made no difference and no one can convince me otherwise. 3) Perhaps a vote away from the party (a lot of votes) might wake some up to the fact that we are deeply dissatisfied with the options we are being given. Perhaps.
I hate that in the movies. The evil man holds a gun on the protagonist's daughter and says, "If you don't do what I say, I'll kill her and it will be your fault." Nonsense. It's his fault. What Biden is doing is not my fault. What Trump did was not my fault. What Reagan did was not to my credit. I have a clear conscience.
You keep touting how Trump pushed the needle in the right direction, even slightly. I don't see that. He was not opposed to abortion in any way, nor was he opposed to homosexuality. Nothing he did effected the moral direction of this nation in the positive. (And the number of homosexuals doesn't change based on who's President, only the acceptance of them.) You say Trump did great things for this country. I never saw it. Nothing in my life or the life of the people I know changed a mite. We were, and continue to be, the laughing stock of other nations. Abortions weren't slowed in any way. Homosexuality was not refused as acceptable in any way. How was Trump so great for this country? You say he was the lesser of two evils. I disagree. They were both of equal evilness, just in different areas. I did vote for the lesser of the evils, just not one that any hope of winning. I'm not looking for a perfect or righteous President. But one that openly opposes abortion and the acceptance of sin would be nice. Both candidates embraced sin without remorse. I see no difference between the two. I saw Trump as just as bad for the country as Biden. Maybe I'm different ways, but not in different scales.
You want an example of a Republican I would have voted for? Pence. He's the standard of attempting moral uprightness I want in my President.
David,
As with Stan, I'm not getting anything all that definitive from you with regard to Trump. It's clear you hate the guy, too (don't deny it). while I'm not necessarily enamored with Trump the man...except for entertainment value...I'm not willing to denigrate him beyond flaws and deeds known to us (as opposed to merely suspected because so many people say stuff). But you clearly haven't been paying attention to anything beyond stuff people say. So here's some things other people have said:
https://www.hrc.org/resources/2016republicanfacts-donald-trump
https://www.sba-list.org/trump-pro-life-wins
Note the sources. Based on the stuff said by two groups with "skin in the games", Trump was clearly more than merely "opposed" to abortion and homosexuality. He actually acted. As to changing hearts and minds, that's an entirely different ball game. It's an unfortunate fact, to my understanding, that once you allow bad behavior, and bad behavior becomes accepted or tolerated as "normal", it is far more difficult to reverse course, because bad behavior is the natural inclination of mankind.
"You say Trump did great things for this country. I never saw it."
You never looked, therefore you never saw. His achievements are not classified. They are open to all who care to know.
"Nothing in my life or the life of the people I know changed a mite."
How very selfish of you. On tax policy alone, it would have been difficult for me to feel any difference had my wife not actually looked at our tax situation. We simply don't make so much that a few percentage points don't make a world of difference. But the calculations definitely showed we saved the average $2000 per year (each) after Trump's tax plan went into effect. 80% percent of the population enjoyed tax savings with the greatest percentage going to the lower income brackets. This was affirmed by even leftist tax policy groups. Unemployment at the lowest levels since the 60s, with black unemployment the lowest since they began tracking black unemployment specifically and you're going to say "I never saw it". Clearly, you weren't looking, preferring to focus on his character alone so you can pontificate and get all sanctimonious in your electoral preferences. I just happen to see elections as a matter of what political leaders are supposed to do based on their constitutional obligations. If we Jesus won't run for president, we need to vote for the guy who's least like Satan. More to the point, if only two have any chance of winning, then to vote for a third who has no chance is a vote for the worse of the two who do.
How a candidate lives his own life is not necessarily the same as how he will govern. I had the very same concerns the first time around. His four years showed that his governance did not include promoting sinfulness as public policy. I would recommend you never vote again. To see no difference between Biden and Trump demonstrates you haven't a clue about what the point of presidential elections is.
I would love to know who you did vote for. That would speak volumes, except that it wouldn't provide an legitimate explanation for why you'd allow Biden to win to do what he has done.
Stan,
Your answer is not an answer to the question. I also "did exactly what I believed God required of me." I just don't see how you disagree and on what basis. Given the purpose and duties of a president, how was voting for Trump contrary to what you believe God requires of you? You and David both speak against the notion that no government will be sufficient to do right, yet you vote contrary to that position. You ignore the fact that only one of the two would succeed to the Big Chair and yet you chose not to serve the nation of which you are a part...to not be the Good Samaritan when our nation was lying on the side of the road...and insist you're doing God's Will...how exactly? You haven't explained that bit of it yet.
"I don't blame myself for Biden's victory, Trump's defeat, or the things that are going on in this country"
I do. I blame us both. You for allowing Biden to win by not supporting the only guy who could prevent his win, and me for not doing enough. I don't mean blaming in the sense that we must serve time, but we are indeed responsible because it's the manner in which our government operates. We're the people who do the consenting and you especially are among those who consented to Biden's win and all the came after, because you chose an option which did nothing but make yourself feel all holy and sanctimonious.
Each vote makes a difference. No single vote does so by itself but in concert with millions of others. I don't think this is news to you. But you treat the general as if it's just another primary. There's no "statement" in the general except which path will we take. Your vote resulted in the path we are now on because it didn't join with those who would have meant the other path would have been chosen. Here's what truly makes no difference: A third party vote. Except that it aided Biden. It made a difference in that manner, one wasted vote at a time.
Your analogy is Trabue-like. It has no relation to the dynamic here.
"The evil man holds a gun on the protagonist's daughter and says, "If you don't do what I say, I'll kill her and it will be your fault.""
That doesn't describe the situation at all! It's absurd! I'm pointing to the fact that our country faced two paths, one represented by each candidate. No third candidate presented a path which we were likely to travel, so all we could do was to continue on the path we were on, which was improving life for most Americans, versus the path which Biden offered and you went with Biden by not going with Trump. It's that simple.
Look. I support hard core conservatism and the more Christian the conservative the better. That's just me. I do not want anything that is contrary to that, even if the alternative is not the ideal of "conservative Christian" I would prefer. There's no way I'm not right with God by choosing the better of the only two options likely to persevere. "Let's see...do I choose murder and rape, or only murder? It's the only two options. I'll get one or the other because of that. Hmm. I going is 'only murder', because there's less harm." How is that not the better choice when I have the ability to choose?
So who was YOUR choice?
Sorry, Art. I ran out of answers for Dan a long time ago. "You haven't answered my question" when I had ... repeatedly. So I'll finish. I think what you're looking for is "Why do you hate Trump so much?" and THAT I can't answer because I don't. Not voting for the man and not wanting him to be our next president are not the same as hating the person.
I can't imagine more damage to the name of Christ than has been done with Trump-furor in the Christian realm. He openly discussed sexual immorality as if it was normal, carefully practiced obfuscation (think things like tax returns), made it abundantly clear that morality was not his thing; big business was. He had a reputation for "swift to anger" (something you don't really want from someone with his finger on the red button) and even you admit that his twitter practices were atrocious. Since Jesus said what comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, I'd say his heart looked bleak, particularly in matters of lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life. Christ was the penultimate humble man; Trump was the pinnacle of the opposite. I don't hate the man; He needs Jesus. But the heathens blaspheme the name of God because of the Christian Trump fans. I warned about this before he was ever elected. He never did anything to change that. Voting for him would have violated my conscience. The fact that you don't get that doesn't change the fact.
I don't know how strong your faith is if you worry that Trump has done damage to His name more than those who actually work to eliminate Him from all areas of life. That's not Trump. He's just a dude with character issues which he hasn't learned how to hide to prevent them from influencing voters like you. I don't recall any point at which he promoted sexual immorality...even before he was president, much less after his election. Maybe I missed it. I always found such things to be for preachers and parents to teach, and ourselves to divine from our personal studies. I wanted someone to do the job of president, which he did quite well in the aggregate, and protect and benefit this nation and its people. Again. He did that quite well.
I doubt Trump spent much time with his tax forms. A guy with all he had going on had accountants and tax preparers for that. Accusations about "obfuscation" are strange given tax avoidance is not at all immoral if by the term we're speaking of not paying taxes not actually owed. Do you have any evidence he sought to go beyond that any more than anyone else does?
"Morality" not his thing? Did anyone ask him what he meant by that when his alternative was business? Could it have meant he wasn't intending to be a moral role model? I believe we all should be, but that isn't a widely held self-expectation these days. I don't look to presidents for that even if I prefer they are among those I'd consider good role models. Doing what a president is supposed to do is what I look for when choosing between available candidates who have any chance of winning and thus impacting our lives for four to eight years.
Who are you citing with regard to his being "swift to anger"? His allies or his enemies? What evidence can you present that his finger on the button is a real threat at all?
I'm unaware of any president who didn't have pride enough to believe he could do the job. Reagan might be the closest to presenting himself as a humble person, but he still needed enough pride to seek the privilege in the first place. There's a fine line between self-confidence and pride. Trump may be on the wrong side of that line, but I believe we simply see a guy who's content in his own skin and that confidence...or pride if you need to believe that...led to him accomplishing a number of things he was criticized for daring to insist he would accomplish. The naysayers were proven wrong several times because of his self-confidence and knowledge of his own capabilities. In anyone else, it would be called "leadership", but you TDS sufferers prefer negative appellations.
But all of that truth isn't the point. The point is the choice you refused to make and the predicted...OBVIOUSLY SO... consequences of allowing Biden to win. There's no way one can see the clear negative potential...it's in their freaking party platform, for the love of all that's holy..., weigh it against his fine performance as president (tweets aside) and pretend one's conscience is clear. Your analogy above is, as I said, foolish. A better one would be choosing the left or right fork in the road. The left fork is known to go over a cliff, while the right fork gets one where one wants to go, even if not perfectly. You chose to drive us over the cliff when you knew the cliff was there for us to drive over. You might want to get a check up for your conscience. It ain't working right.
As you wish, Marshal. You will continue to refuse to allow me my conscience and label me as evil for failing to vote for Trump even if my vote would not have made a difference to his campaign. You will continue to argue that what's happening is all negative while affirming that God works all things together for a positive. And I'll have to just limp along with my meager faith. Romans 14 still stands. You still haven't read it, have you.
I don't agree with your "left and right fork" analogy. At best, Trump was heading toward a different part of the cliff, not avoiding it all together. And it's not so much they Trump gives a bad name to Christ, but that his Christian supporters do. We are supposed to care about the character of the people we like. Our promotion of him speaks poorly about the importance of morality in our lives. If morality doesn't matter to us Christians, why should anyone care about Christ. Plus, I see the arguments in support of the immoral Trump as the same exact ones given of Bill Clinton. "His character doesn't matter, just look at what he's done for the country." Back then, I imagine you argued that Clinton's character mattered, but now Trump's doesn't? I had hoped that Republicans could at least be consistent, but even they fall prey to simple politics without regard for what they've said in the past. Who we vote for matters. It simply tells where your priorities are. I don't believe any President going forward is going to be able to stem the tide of abortion and LGBT acceptance. Which is why I say we Christians have already lost the political war. Maybe we just need to get down to bring 3-4% of the population so our voices can be heard, you know like the homosexuals.
Oh man, do I dream of the day when only 3-4% of the population admits to being Christian. Only then will we see the Church thrive and be relevant again.
"You will continue to refuse to allow me my conscience and label me as evil for failing to vote for Trump even if my vote would not have made a difference to his campaign."
Three flaws in this comment:
1. I've denied you nothing, nor could I possibly. I simply haven't gotten an explanation for how you conscience was served by inviting the obvious with your vote. Again, there was no way things couldn't have deteriorated with a Biden win. There's nothing in the Dem platform, the bleatings of Dem politicians or Biden's track record upon which one could rationally presume improvement would take place. It didn't have to be as bad as it has gotten for that to be true.
2. I haven't labeled you as evil. I haven't labeled you at all except for "not forthcoming" with regard to your thinking process on this issue. All I've been given is platitudes about conscience and God's Sovereignty, neither of which are relevant to my plea for explanation.
As to your conscience voting, I've done the same as I've said. But I've just read something in a book I'm into..."Frederick Douglass: Prophet of Freedom" by David W Blight. The excerpt of relevance:
"The bulk of Douglass' endorsement reveals a mind torn between moral principle and political action. He urged Liberty men to remember that a vote could seldom represent all of one's moral convictions. Sounding like a veteran politician, he offered a 'rule' for action: 'The voter ought to see to it that his vote shall secure the highest good possible, at the same time that it does no harm.'" (Italics and bold mine)
Sound advice to be sure. This conflict exists in most every vote, especially the more we know about the person who is running in combination with the person's platform. Great harm was the result of your vote.
3. Every vote makes a difference. There can be no other way to look at it lest each vote be a complete waste of time. If you truly feel yours didn't, don't ever go near a voting booth again! Each should vote as if one's vote is the deciding vote, but placed with a rational understanding of the potential outcome should the worst evil succeed. When Jesus runs for office, the choice will be easy. But the choice wasn't difficult at all, even if the worst believed about Trump is absolutely true and accurate. That's just the fact of the matter.
"You will continue to argue that what's happening is all negative while affirming that God works all things together for a positive."
That's only because of how true it was, and how predictable! Indeed, both are true at the same time, but it our job to deal with the first part to the best of our ability. Allowing harm we know would come just because of Trump's imperfection of character can't possibly be pleasing to God given the consequences we've seen over the last seven months. And you haven't explained how it might be. We both seek to do God's will. I've explained why I think I've done that. You just say you're doing it. Not the same thing.
By the way, I've read the Bible several times cover to cover, and I've now read Romans 14 several times as well since you've appealed to it. It still doesn't stand as relevant to the question I've posed.
David,
I've already demonstrated your lack of knowledge regarding Trump's record on the two issues on which you insisted he's done nothing. As more people had been working, peace was breaking out between Israel and its Arab neighbors, fewer illegals were gaining access to our country and a host of other positives which I'm prepared to list again if necessary, to say he was pushing us over a cliff demands evidence. I won't hold my breath.
"And it's not so much they Trump gives a bad name to Christ, but that his Christian supporters do."
This is abject nonsense to rationalize your rejection of him as president. We're supposed to care about the good of the nation. Your refusal to continue his good work as president demonstrates how little you care about you country, just to appear holy. Morality absolutely matters to us Christians. But it isn't the job of the president to strengthen your moral character, and Trump did nothing to promote his lifestyle as a model to follow.
You want to bring up Clinton, but Clinton wasn't running against a Joe Biden, was he? Clinton's "successes" were more often the result of his Republican majority congress. And I did hold Trump's character against him in the primaries prior to the 2016 election. I couldn't when it came down to either him or Hillary...again, the only two possible outcomes of the general election. In 2020, the choice was even more stark given his great record as president...of which you clearly know nothing beyond what I've provided for you...and the obvious worthlessness of Joe Biden given his worthless record of 50 years in politics.
Thus, this was not at all a matter of falling "prey to simple politics without regard for what they've said in the past." It's a matter of seeing the stark difference between the two situations and voting accordingly. Who we vote for matters. Indeed! We see just how much it matters as we review the last seven months and the last few weeks! We see that your priorities are appearing holy rather than the suffering of your fellow man. You've surrendered to the very people you pretend to defend against. What good will any number of professed Christians be if they regard voting as childishly as do you.
So now, despite it being traditionally bad form, I ask of each of you, Stan and David, for whom did you vote for president? Providing that info might help in understanding how you could leave your nation to the likes of Joe Biden and the Democratic Party.
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