The truth is that no matter where you fall on the question, someone is better.
In the Arminian, "free will" perspective the only possible conclusion is that I am better because I made the right choice, summoned up the faith required, did the right thing in repenting. All those other folks who didn't? Well, they apparently didn't have what I had. Better information? Perhaps. More spiritually aware or spiritually wise? Maybe. Maybe I just got it and they didn't. Whatever it is, I have to start out as a somehow better model of human being than those who do not get it.
Of course, from the view that God chooses apart from anything in the one being chosen, the outcome is indeed that they are better. They are better off. They are destined for better things. They are going in a better direction. It cannot be argued that it's just as good not to know God as it is to know God. The Elect are better. The difference, of course, is that the Elect are not better at their core. They are better because of what God has chosen to do. Biblically,
God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God (1 Cor 1:27-29).As such, then, a claim that God chose me on His own basis, not on the basis that I chose Him, is a claim that I am among the foolish, the weak, the base, the despised. My "qualifications" for being chosen would be that I have none. Just a great need.
Someone is better off who is in Christ. From one perspective it is my free will that got me here and so I'm better to start with or it is God's will alone that got me here and I'm just better off for it. If the aim is "so that no man may boast before God", you'll need to decide on your own which fits better.
12 comments:
Human beings are sinful, so you can have pride with either system. But I think it is more likely with Arminianism.
"But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."
Paul
"Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God!
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood."
Isaac Watts
May I just say amen.
The only thing we can boast in before God is His glorious, gracious work in us. We have nothing to bring to the table of salvation. Praise the Lord for choosing me through all my sins.
Yet, I don't feel like boasting. I rather feel like rejoicing in the free will given to me to make the right choice, not because I'm better, smarter or whatever. But because I have the choice to make I CAN rejoice. Imagine if I had NO choice and my salvation was not made available to me.
The thing that continues to get me is this Calvinistic insistence that one will boast for making the right choice. It doesn't make sense to me. Might someone? Sure, I suppose so. Why not? Must it be so for everyone? Hardly.
You seem pretty damned proud NOT to have to choose. You seem somewhat boastful about it. "Check. It. OUT!! I didn't have to do NOTHIN'!"
What's the difference?
Now, now, Marshall, let's not lapse into nonsense. I do not believe that I didn't have to choose. I do not believe that "I didn't have to do NOTHIN!" I do not believe I'm somehow special (and therefore boast-worthy) for being chosen.
A couple of quick points. First, the passage says, "That none may boast," not "that everyone will boast." That is, just because you're not boasting doesn't mean you don't have room to do so. The "Calvinistic insistence that one will boast" doesn't mean "everyone will", but that "anyone can". Second, you have highlighted the difference perfectly. In one perspective, God chooses and initiates the change needed to enable the person to make the choice. In the other, Man chooses and rejoices in his free will.
I was asked the question, "What was the difference between you and the guy next to you when you heard the Gospel and received it and he heard the Gospel and rejected it?" That kind of thing happens all the time. And if you can answer that from your free will perspective without coming out better than him, you're doing well because I cannot supply an answer to that question without coming out better than that guy who made the wrong choice.
And, seriously, Marshall, it's proud to say "There is nothing in me worth redeeming and I am among the least. I could do nothing to change it. Isn't it astounding that God chose to save me"?
Stan, you said those of an Arminian perspective think, "Whatever it is, I have to start out as a somehow better model of human being than those who do not get it."
Huh? Are you serious? Like the thief hanging on the cross next to Jesus? You think he thought he was a better model of a human being than the guy on the other side of Jesus? Gee, I doubt it. Wow, what a thought. Do you actually believe this is in the Aminian thought process?
I really don't know ANYONE who thinks this way and I never have in all my years as a believer. (I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd, huh?) Do you think Arminians hide that thought inside? What an accusation.
From my perspective, they think salvation is "just a great need", the same thing as the Calvinist might think. They thirst; they find water. Why would they then look at all others who are still thirsty as lesser models of human beings? They look at those who still thirst with compassion and hope that they, too, will be saved from their current situation. But for them to think that they are somehow "better" is something about which I have never heard.
You also said, "The truth is that no matter where you fall on the question, someone is better." Is that so? Somehow I missed that bit of "truth". The "better off" part I understand however.
How sad that the worldwide body of Christ is even divided into all these factions/categories/brands. We've got all these people running around saying we're Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Nazarenes, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Calvinists, Armenians, etcetera. Personally, I always cringe at the use of these man-made labels. (I had a couple derogatory adjectives in front of "man-made", but decided to remove them. I'll let you fill in your own. "Man-made" is probably bad enough. All by itself, it sounds rather idol-like, doesn't it?)
This can't be the heart of God and especially if the people within them are prideful in any way, thinking that THEY somehow have the corner on the market of truth, they and only they possess the whole truth and nothing but the truth and all the others are inferior in various ways. How prideful is that?!
Every believer I know has only felt blessed beyond measure that he/she has heard the gospel and become a new creation, but never that they were somehow first "a better model of human being". If any do think that, then they have a pride problem and we know what God thinks of the proud.
We're in a battle here on Planet Earth and we believers ought to be a strong and UNITED force, working together for the Kingdom of God. We ought to have a common enemy and it should not be each other. We should all be running in the same direction on the battlefield, under the banner of Jesus Christ. Instead, the body is fractured into a ridiculous number of camps and running under many man-made labels and banners. We ought to be able to trust that our brothers and sisters in the Lord have got our backs, instead of having to worry that they might be waiting to stab us in them.
At night, instead of separating ourselves and sitting only with those in our own camps, all of God's adopted children ought to be sitting down TOGETHER, singing and fellowshipping around the same campfire. I can't help but think that Satan just delights in our labeling and the divisiveness that it brings. And why would we EVER want to give him his way??? Personally, I identify myself only as a Christian or a follower of Christ. If someone wants to poke around and really thinks they must know what kind of church I attend, I might tell them, but I'll find no pride in telling them its denominational affiliation. And please don't judge me by that as much as by my relationship with God Himself, okay?
I don't think it's the perfect church. How could it be when it's composed of imperfect people? But I do think it is definitely being instrumental both in bringing people to the knowledge of the truth and leading people into deeper relationships with the truth... "the truth" being Jesus and "the preaching of the cross" (I Cor. 1:18). I happen to really appreciate that this particular congregation makes very, very little or no mention of itself and only gives all glory to God. If ever I do hear its name (usually spoken by a visiting speaker), I cringe, because it seems prideful and unnecessary that it even be mentioned. If God is doing a mighty work among us, to God and God alone be the glory. Who are we but a group under Him who gathers together to learn from His word and praise, worship, and fellowship together? We never divide ourselves up into subgroups..... the Calvinists on this side and the Arminians on the other.
We believers can't all fit under the same church roof and we don't all enjoy exactly the same speaking and music styles but either we have the light or we don't and we live in darkness. Either we recognize God as our Creator and our God and He we call Him our Father or we don't. We either acknowledge Jesus as His son, God incarnate, Who died to save us from our sins, or we don't. Just how much more complicated must it be than this? How long is this list of things I must believe in order to be His? And what happens if, when I die, I have 49 of those "essentials" right, but am in error on the 50th? Will it matter that my heart has been turned toward Him for years? Remember, God looks at the heart. It may even matter to Him MORE THAN most all of our silly little man-made names, rules, and regulations regarding how to be the perfect believers.
My favorite scripture is II Cor. 11:3 and it has been for many, many years. Do I want to be simpleminded (as in stupid)? Of course not! But I do want to keep my focus on that which is of most importance and not be continually yanked about by all the sometimes (seemingly) conflicting and often very confusing extracurricular distractions that exist out there. I want to grow and mature in the Lord and, in the end, feel VERY blessed if I should happen to be told by my Lord something akin to, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."
It says: "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
Ah, with so very many distractions and the striving for right understanding of this and of that, isn't that a beautiful thought? The simplicity that is in Christ.... I can rest in the knowledge of that existing and that IT is something I should aspire to attain. God is my Father. I am His daughter. I adore Him. His banner over me is love.
I love discussions about religious matters. Oh, how I do! During my high school years, I had excitedly hoped to someday get a degree in Religious Studies. No other field of study interested me like that did! But later, in college, and partway into it, I finally realized how impractical a degree it is when it comes to actually finding a job that utilizes all that wonderful knowledge. I had 3 friends with R.S. degrees (a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker) and a friend's dad was the head of the religious studies department at a state university. All advised against it, that is unless I wanted to get a teaching degree as well or become a successful writer. I would have been spending a lot of money my parents didn't have and years of study time mostly just to satisfy my own curiosity. Because of this fascination with all things spiritual, personally I try to stay ever aware of what too often occurs with us humans. We get easily sidetracked and caught up in all kinds of ISSUES that can corrupt our minds from the simplicity that is in Christ. (Some translations say "your minds may somehow be led astray from sincere and pure devotion to Christ".)
We can lose our childlike faith, our trust in our Father, and start trusting in doctrines and creeds and books and the general consensus of humans we regard as intelligent. Whenever I recognize that beginning to occur within myself, I catch myself, this scripture comes to mind, and I reduce it all back down to basics. Maybe some can be concentrating and pondering all kinds of deep spiritual matters AND the Lord at the same time, giving Him equal time, but I have to wonder sometimes just how pleasing some of these things with which we occupy our minds are to Him? Would I rather someone spent time reading lots of books about me, or spent time with me?
I want to advance in knowledge, wisdom, and discernment but, at the same time, keep my relationship with my Lord simple and pure. I want to keep my eyes and ears on my Commander on this battlefield or I am apt to start wandering off to the left or to the right, having become distracted by something of lesser importance yet again.
Anyway, I am trying to understand some of your Calvinist ways of thinking. You should be happy about that, I would think. It seems quite important to you. Eww. Sorry, but I bristle at even having a
"yours" and "mine"/"us" and "them" type distinction. I had always just considered you to be my brother in the Lord, Stan, up until a post of yours about 6 weeks ago in which I felt that you quite clearly divided those who call themselves Christians into Calvinists and Arminians. I had thought you considered me to be your sister in the Lord as well. I got done reading that post and I felt sad. I do still consider you my brother, by the way. I think we have the same Father, the God of the Bible, but just some different perceptions of Him and the world around us. Somehow maybe I should be trying to meld yours and mine into one? I'm not sure. In the meantime, I welcome the God I have always known to show me a different side of Himself if there is one.
In spite of all your many explanations over the months, I imagine I still have some misconceptions going on here. (I'm trying to reconcile my Potter God with my Stand at the Door and Knock God, for one thing. And that total depravity of man doctrine? Charming. At this time, I'm sure glad I wasn't raised with that world view! It seems it taints everything. But hey, I'm open to change! Maybe I'll get there one of these days. One can only hope, huh? :o)
The Calvinist perspective of the elect, if I were to try to explain it to someone, SEEMS to be saying that it's just kind of a "luck of the draw" type thing. Nothing at all that anyone does has any bearing whatsoever on who gets chosen to be in God's family and go live with Him forever someday. Some people, when they die, are "lucky stiffs" and some are not, and there's really not a thing anyone can do about that. That's God's decision. He decides who His elect are and that's just the way it is. If He needs you, He'll call. But it's never a matter of if you need Him, you can call on Him, because that would be you doing something that might lead to your salvation. So, you'd better just hope that you are one of the chosen. It's just the luck of the draw, man. No? See; like I said, I'm probably misunderstanding something. (And don't worry. I'm likely not going to be trying to explain such a thing to others without first better understanding.)
Sorry, but (back to your post's actual topic) I just can't fathom that anyone who is truly born again a brand new creation -- chosen by God or having chosen to follow God -- would ever boast about it. We can and should be extremely thankful for whatever provisions with which we've been blessed, but boastful? That's inconceivable. What a weird thought. Just can't really relate to this post of yours today.
Please note: I said "the Arminian perspective", not "the Arminian". As I said to Marshall, the perspective leaves room for boasting even if not all adherents boast. Your view, in fact, is quite telling. Apparently the thief on the cross was an Arminian ... right?
Do I know anyone who thinks this way? No, of course not. "I'm smarter than anyone else so I figured it out" won't fly. But I'm not talking about how people think. I'm talking about the Arminian perspective. Why don't they think that way? Why did you choose Christ when others don't? How is that not a reason to boast? Because you don't doesn't mean there isn't a reason.
But, look, it's quite clear that this kind of stuff makes you angry. Maybe you should just leave this stuff alone. I don't think that Arminians aren't saved (even though more than one Arminian has told me I'm not). If it bothers you that Christians don't all agree, don't read them. Find those who agree and read them. I know this sounds really harsh, but I'm not meaning it as such. It just seems like I have only one of two alternatives. I can either read the Scripture and understand it as I read it and conclude that is true and share it with others ... and be "sad" and "man-made" and "idol-like", or I can simply ignore what I see, stop thinking about it, and get along with everyone regardless of whether or not I think it's the truth. I can seek the truth and stand there or seek cohesion and ignore whatever I might see as the truth.
Maybe you're right. Maybe some Christians think too much. Maybe I'm "too heavenly minded to be any earthly good." I've been told that before. Maybe I should ignore "deep doctrines" and settle for "no creed but Christ". But if I did I would lose. I would lose the vastness of God's grace, the wide expanse of God's sovereignty, the deepest depths of God's mercy. And I see this stuff as so very, very good that I want to share it. Should I stop? Maybe. I doubt it. But it messes you up, so maybe you should avoid it whenever you can. I can't live without it. You can do without it. Which way should I go?
Hey, Stan.
Next day and I can't seem to find a decent block of time in which to reply, but thank you for responding to my big, old, long unloading of questions and comments, and responding so graciously.
If I only read things written by people with whom I always agree, how boring that would be!! No thanks! I'll take the potential controversies and challenges any day! I don't want to stagnate.
Like it or not, I'm probably going to be hanging with you, Stan. Most all of the time I very much enjoy hearing your thoughts and being challenged by your questions.
I hope to make at least a few more comments sometime very soon. I have to share this computer with my kids and their visiting friends and have someone patiently standing behind me, waiting in line right now. Darn it. Life is getting in the way of my important blogging issues!
Well, dear Sherry, I'm perfectly happy to have you read and comment if it blesses you. Just don't let it get in your way. I wouldn't want to be a stumbling block to you. Now, if you could grasp some of this and take it to heart, I know you'd be blessed. But, of course, that may be too much to ask. :)
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