In a call recently from an 8-year-old to his pastor's call-in radio show, he asked about election. The pastor assured him that God chooses everyone. It's just that some people don't choose God.
Now, on the surface this sounds nice, but please, please, don't dig too deeply or you run into all sorts of problems. Take, for instance, the most obvious. If the New Testament constantly refers to believers as "the elect" (or "the chosen" or similar synonyms) and God chooses everyone, then it would stand to reason that everyone is "elect" and, therefore, saved. Of course, the pastor on the radio would surely deny that, so we have to figure out something else.
The more popular idea is "God chooses everyone in a sense, but the real 'elect' are those who choose Him." Yeah, that's the ticket! Where are we going with this? Well, it is essential in many (most?) people's minds to keep intact the human Free Will. It is key that humans make the choice apart from ... what ... any influence? I would suggest that free will occurs when the choice is made without coercion, but that doesn't seem to go over very well. That is, if God gave a human being a new inclination (to, say, choose Him), then that person's choosing of God would not be "free will". So I guess the idea is that Free Will must be without influence.
Well, of course, that's just silliness. All choices are influenced. If, indeed, there is no influence, choices can't be made. We have to have a reason to make a choice between two things. Something in the options has to influence us to choose one thing over another. The simple truth is that this kind of "Free Will" (uninfluenced autonomy) doesn't exist. We are all influenced by surroundings, preferences, circumstances, conditions, inclinations, peer pressure ... or in philosophical terms, "lots and lots of things".
There is another problem. We know some things from Scripture that establish certain parameters. We know, for instance, that "Natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Cor 2:14). That's right. There is a "cannot" in there along with the "does not" -- an inability. And we know this from the lips of our Savior: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63). Allow me to repeat: "The flesh profits nothing." Someone once said, "And that's not a little something." Paul tells us "The mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom 8:6-8).
These are just a few parameters we know from Scripture. How does that relate to the problem at hand? Well, here's the idea. God chooses everyone, but the only ones who are "elect" are those who choose God. It is "those who choose God" that determine who is elect. Now, let me ask you ... to "choose God", is it required that you understand something about the things of the Spirit of God? Anything? If you choose God (as a dead-in-sin sinner), is it actually accurate of Christ to say that the flesh profits nothing? I mean, it was sufficient to get you to make the right choice. And what has to occur for a person who is "in the flesh" (the standard definition of all unbelievers) to overcome their own death, bypass their hostility toward God, and actually accomplish what Paul says they cannot accomplish -- pleasing God by choosing Him?
Choice. You may think it's a little thing. You may see human Free Will as sacrosanct. Not even God will mess with that. And what is a choice? Just a little thing, right? Well, in this case it transcends an inability to comprehend, makes something out of nothing, supersedes death, overcomes hostility toward God, and actually accomplishes the impossible. That's no small thing, if you ask me. In fact, I have to tell you, if that is what determines between the "chosen" and the "not chosen", the Chosen have a lot to brag about because doing the difficult is one thing but doing the impossible is something else entirely.
23 comments:
You may be tired of my answering your questions - if so let me know. In the meantime, you asked...
Now, let me ask you ... to "choose God", is it required that you understand something about the things of the Spirit of God? Anything?
Yes, it is necessary to understand a bit about God in order to choose God.
Fortunately, the Bible is clear that God's nature and desires have been revealed to us.
God reveals God's Self in Nature...
“The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” ~Ps 19
“For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes, God's eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” ~Rom 1
By God's word/law written upon our hearts/minds/consciences...
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean... ~Rom 2
And by the testimony of people, of other believers, today and throughout history.
Stan asked...
And what has to occur for a person who is "in the flesh..." to overcome their own death, bypass their hostility toward God, and actually accomplish what Paul says they cannot accomplish -- pleasing God by choosing Him?
The conviction of the Holy Spirit, the Call of God, these are what have to occur. God calls and we answer.
"And when the Holy Spirit is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." ~John 16
"Behold I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. ~Rev 3
And God does this for everyone, for the Bible tells us that God is not willing for ANY to perish. I suppose one might make the case that, while God is not willing for any to perish, God thinks, "But in HIS case, I'm willing to make an exception..." but I don't think that's a biblical or logical or moral position to hold.
Is that answering your questions?
We choose alright, but our choices have to do more with the rejecting of God, than anything else.
We are born in active rebellion to God.
He chooses us, we do not choose Him. (didn't Jesus say that?)
After He chooses us, then we make choices concerning God, but they are weak and frought with problems.
We accept Him and reject Him again, everyday.
"Free will", when it comes to choosing God...just isn't.
It is His will for sinners, that counts.
May I ask a question?
I am not understanding what you mean here:
Well, in this case it transcends an inability to comprehend, makes something out of nothing, supersedes death, overcomes hostility toward God, and actually accomplishes the impossible. That's no small thing, if you ask me. In fact, I have to tell you, if that is what determines between the "chosen" and the "not chosen", the Chosen have a lot to brag about because doing the difficult is one thing but doing the impossible is something else entirely
What is it that you think is impossible? Could you elaborate a bit?
Are you suggesting that all humans are always hostile towards God, as a matter of nature, not choice?
The only Bible passage I could find hinting at this, was Romans 8:7, which says, in NASB...
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
But that passage does not seem to be speaking of ALL of humanity all of the time, just those of us who have set our minds "on the flesh" ("Focused on human nature", in NIV, the "carnal mind" in KJV) and that passage is preceded by, "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
This says to me that NOT all of humanity is "carnally minded," but thanks be to God in whose image we are created, we have the capacity for choice - to choose to be "after the flesh" OR "after the Spirit."
So, perhaps you could help me understand what you're saying?
Steve,
I agree with everything you wrote. I have a question ... purely out of curiosity, not for debate. I understand you to be Lutheran. (If I'm wrong, say, "You're mistaken" and we're done.) I am not entirely clear (not being Lutheran myself), but is what you expressed in full agreement with Lutheran theology? (I ask because it seems like several Lutheran sites disagree with this whole "chosen" thing.)
Dan, in order to conclude that all of that which you are quite sure is possible can occur, it is necessary to either toss out or mitigate all the Scripture I offered. Paul said that the human being in his natural (unsaved) condition "does not accept the things of the Spirit of God" and cannot understand them. You would have to revise Paul's words. Jesus said, "The flesh profits nothing." Since Natural Man is spiritually dead, he is only in the flesh. So "nothing" would be an overstatement on the part of Christ. The same thing is true with hostility towards God. In order to not be hostile towards God, it is necessary to have "the mind set on the Spirit" (which we just saw Paul said was impossible for Natural Man). (I wasn't hinting. That's the passage I quoted -- Rom 8:6-8.) In order for the whole thing to work as you indicate, a Natural Man would have to be capable of setting his mind on the Spirit.
Am I saying all men at all times are of this nature or in this condition? No, of course not. Don't be ridiculous. On the other hand, I am saying that Natural Man is always in this condition. The New Man has a new heart, a new life, a new Spirit.
But ... you clearly disagree. Your view is that a person who is dead in sin is capable of becoming spiritually minded. So ... what do you do with all that helpful Scripture I offered that says otherwise?
Stan asked...
So ... what do you do with all that helpful Scripture I offered that says otherwise?
1. I don't reject it.
2. I DO interpret it differently than you do.
For instance, your 1 Cor 2 passage...
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
The "natural man" does not receive the things of the Spirit, this passage tells us. BUT other passages tell us that God is not willing for any to perish. And that God reveals God's self in many ways so that NO ONE can say God has not been revealed to them. We ALL have God revealed to us, according to the Bible.
Do we agree on that much?
Then what does it mean that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit? Well, to me, it seems like (and TO ME this passage would fall under the category of less-than-clear, fyi) it's saying that we've all have/had God revealed to us. When we're acting upon our more baser instincts, our "carnal flesh," we don't accept God. When we act upon God's call, we ARE accepting God.
WHILE we are acting in our more selfish, ugly nature, we CAN'T understand the things of God. BUT, when we strive by God's grace to see with our more spiritual instincts (being created in the image of God, and only a little lower than the angels, after all), we CAN come closer to understanding the things of God.
Stan said...
Your view is that a person who is dead in sin is capable of becoming spiritually minded.
My view is that God is willing for us to be saved and that God knocks on the door and we can choose to open it, because we have been created in the image of God, with the power of choice.
The notion of being "Dead in sin" does not appear in the Bible, as far as I can recall, as this fella agrees.
Perhaps it would help if you defined and explained biblically what you mean by "dead in sin"?
I have to step carefully because, while you present this as all "straightforward", it's not. So ...
Dan Trabue: "other passages tell us that God is not willing for any to perish"
I agree that 2 Peter 3:9 includes the phrase "not willing that any should perish". I wholeheartedly disagree with your understanding of that phrase. I know that 1 Tim 2:4 says that God "desires all people to be saved", but "desires" and "wills" are two different things. The way you wield that concept, it would violate God's divine will for anyone to perish. (And, of course, since the Scriptures are abundantly clear that some, indeed, do perish, then God's divine will fails miserably.) The way I understand it, God would like for everyone to be saved, but that is not His actual plan. (If it were, it would happen.) So ... do we agree?
Dan Trabue: "this passage would fall under the category of less-than-clear"
Funny. Never a more clear passage have I ever seen. This would fall under the "explicit" to me, by which the "implicit" must be interpreted.
Dan Trabue: "When we're acting upon our more baser instincts ..."
So, the idea is that Man has some ... good in him. Paul exaggerated when he said, "There is none good; no, not one." Truth is, we have our baser instincts and our good instincts. The only time we are operating as a natural human being is when we are operating on our baser instincts. Did I understand you correctly?
Dan Trabue: "The notion of being "Dead in sin" does not appear in the Bible."
This, then, would fall under the "reject it" category which you said you don't do. Paul quite clearly characterizes those who are not in Christ this way: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" (Eph 2:1-3). Now, you (and your reference) may quibble about whether or not you're born that way, but there is zero question about who sins (Rom 3:23). So the "dead" part of this passage is undeniable. Still, "God knocks on the door and we can choose to open it, because we have been created in the image of God, with the power of choice." I would guess you'd like my Princess Bride Theology idea ... or not.
So ... let's see where we stand. You understand 2 Peter 3:9 in an illogical way, but use it as a certainty by which you explain away what Paul seems to clearly state in 1 Cor 2:14. You reject entirely Paul's "dead in your trespasses and sins" ... I suppose because I said "dead in sins" and Paul said "dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked" and that's not the same thing ... right? Paul's whole "enslaved to sin" thing in Rom 6:6 (the only remedy for which is death) is probably not an issue either. You know, I think, between all that cultural nonsense and hyperbole, you probably don't care much for Paul, do you? He's pretty unclear.
I love Paul. I hate the way some fundamentalists treat his writings, though.
Stan said...
The way you wield that concept, it would violate God's divine will for anyone to perish. (And, of course, since the Scriptures are abundantly clear that some, indeed, do perish, then God's divine will fails miserably.) The way I understand it, God would like for everyone to be saved, but that is not His actual plan. (If it were, it would happen.) So ... do we agree?
No. I think that when the Bible say that God would like to see everyone saved, it means just what it literally says. The thing stopping God from seeing everyone saved is Free Will. God won't force anyone to be saved. We have been made in God's image with the ability to choose for ourselves and God does not impose God's Self or God's Will on people.
It's what makes sense to me in reading the Bible and the words that I think are abundantly clear.
So, it appears we have a disagreement. But you should be able to see that it's not a matter of Stan believing what God wants him to believe and Dan rejecting it, but rather, we both read the scriptures seeking God's will and come to different conclusions on the matter of free will, apparently.
That happens when you have free choice - brothers in Christ will sometimes not come to an agreement.
Dan Trabue: "The thing stopping God from seeing everyone saved is Free Will. God won't force anyone to be saved. We have been made in God's image with the ability to choose for ourselves and God does not impose God's Self or God's Will on people."
Could you do me a favor? Could you point that out to me somewhere in the Bible? Specifically what I'm looking for is something that says that "God never imposes His Will on people." Don't worry. I'm not a stickler for words. Anything that says something like that will do.
Because, you see, I have a problem with that concept. It says absolutely, undeniably, first and foremost, that God is not Sovereign. He has surrendered that to Man's Free Will. Second, I read where God says, "it was I who kept you from sinning against me", which I can't seem to understand in terms of anything but God imposing His will on someone. And, surely, what happened to Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus would not fall in the category of God not imposing His will on someone, would it? Seems to me the Scriptures are full of instances of God imposing His will everywhere.
So, if you could just find me a passage that says He doesn't do that, I'd appreciate it. (Note that finding an instance where He appears not to impose His will is not the same thing. You're claiming He never does it.)
Specifically what I'm looking for is something that says that "God never imposes His Will on people."... It says absolutely, undeniably, first and foremost, that God is not Sovereign. He has surrendered that to Man's Free Will.
Is this a fair summary of our difference?
If we say that God won't force anyone to be saved, you see that to be a denigration of God's sovereignty. (Does that mean that you DO think God will force some people to be saved? I didn't think you thought that way...)
If you say, God WILL force some people to be saved (which I am not at all sure you're saying), we see it as a denigration of humanity's free will and of how God created us.
Is that our difference? I am not at all sure it is, because I didn't think you thought God forced anyone to be saved. That's all I said - "God won't force anyone to be saved." and you seem to find that objectionable - do you?
Could you point that out to me somewhere in the Bible? Specifically what I'm looking for is something that says that "God never imposes His Will on people."
I didn't say that God never imposes God's will on people. I said God would not force anyone to be saved. See the previous comment.
Dan Trabue: "God would not force anyone to be saved."
The phrase "not force anyone" would be a misunderstanding of what I'm saying. On the other hand, if God doesn't intervene, then humans are "inclined only to evil from their youth", "hostile to God", "dead in transgressions and sins", and so on. Simply "wooing", urging people to come, won't overcome that condition. Unless God acts in a miraculous way (starting with fixing that "dead in sin" problem), nothing is going to move. No one is coming to Christ.
Dan Trabue: "If we say that God won't force anyone to be saved, you see that to be a denigration of God's sovereignty."
Again, keeping in mind that "force anyone" is not what I'm talking about, but if God is limited by Man's Free Will, in what sense do you see God as "sovereign"?
Okay, then if "Force anyone" is not what you're talking about, then you have no problem with my conclusion: God does not force anyone to be saved - is that correct?
If not, does that mean we are agreed that God does not force people to be saved?
So, do we further agree that it is God's will that none would perish?
Dan Trabue: "God does not force anyone to be saved - is that correct?"
No, we're not in agreement. (As is the case so many times, what appears "straightforward" is not.) Does God drag men, kicking and screaming, into the kingdom? No, of course not.
On the other hand, since Man is spiritually dead, if God does not overcome that, no one will choose heaven.
God must do something apart from Man's Free Will to cause that to occur.
Dan Trabue: "Do we further agree that it is God's will that none would perish?"
I could have sworn I already told you. It is not God's will; it is God's wish ... but His plan is something else!
Stan asked...
if God is limited by Man's Free Will, in what sense do you see God as "sovereign"?
In the same sense that you do. God can do anything God wants, being God. BUT, God limits God's Self. I don't believe will God command us to rape puppies, do you? No, God won't do things against God's nature. I think you've said the same thing before.
It is in God's nature to allow humanity to choose freely whether to be saved or not.
Stan said...
I already told you. It is not God's will; it is God's wish ... but His plan is something else!
But the Bible says specifically and literally, "God... not willing [wishing, desiring] that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Do you think that God is Willing, Wishing, Desiring that none should perish that none perish, but he would have some other PLAN other than what his desire is? Why would you think that?
Stan said...
Man is spiritually dead, if God does not overcome that, no one will choose heaven.
God must do something apart from Man's Free Will to cause that to occur.
And God DOES do something. God reveals God's Self in many ways so that none would have an excuse.
Dan Trabue: "It is in God's nature to allow humanity to choose freely whether to be saved or not."
First, you've never understood what I'm talking about. I told you it wasn't a matter of "forcing" someone to be saved. You assume the alternative is "choose freely whether to be saved or not". Not so.
Second, I have never seen this statement anywhere in Scripture about the nature of God. If you could, I'd appreciate if you could show me any Scripture at all that would say so. I can't think of any reason to think that "allowing humanity to choose" is part of His nature.
Finally, the question isn't answered. You're assigning God's submission to Man's Free Will as part of His nature. You are not telling me how that can possibly be construed as "sovereign".
Dan Trabue: "But the Bible says specifically and literally, 'God... not willing [wishing, desiring] that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'"
First, you haven't really read that lately, have you? It actually says, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (In other words, "God" may be understood, but the Bible doesn't "specifically and literally" say "God".)
Second, if by "willing" you are inferring "God's divine will", and God is indeed sovereign (which apparently is still up in the air), then whatever He wills will certainly happen. In that case, if it is indeed true that God is not willing that any person should perish, then none will perish.
Third, you haven't read it very carefully, have you? You are quoting what it says (mostly), but you are filling in stuff that isn't there. When it says, "not wishing that any should perish", you are filling in "any person". It's not there. It isn't even reasonable. You can't simply insert a subject for "any" without any source, or I could say that God isn't willing that any cats, polar bears, or palm trees should perish. You have to look at the context to determine the subject of "any". Peter says that the Lord is "patient toward you", so that is the context of "any". Who is "you"? 2 Peter 1:1 says he is writing to "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours". So the "any" refers to "people of faith", not a blanket "everyone".
Dan Trabue: "Do you think that God is Willing, Wishing, Desiring that none should perish that none perish, but he would have some other PLAN other than what his desire is? Why would you think that?"
I come up with these silly ideas because it's what I read in the Bible. We read, for instance, that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked ... but we know He carries it out. We read that God is "willing to display His wrath and power on vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." So while it might be nice if God saved everyone (and I believe He could if He wanted to -- He's not limited by Man's choice), He has another plan to show His wrath and power.
Dan Trabue: "God DOES do something. God reveals God's Self..."
In what possible, remote sense in your mind does that overcome "dead"? Without excuse, yes, but capable of responding?
We are "dead in transgressions" (in that one place in the Bible where Paul refers to the idea - I'm not sure that this is a persistent biblical theme) and those that are spiritually dead can come to life when God calls them. Just like Lazarus literally came to life when Jesus called him.
If Jesus merely calling Lazarus was enough to raise him from the dead, do you think God calling us is not enough to raise us from the "spiritually dead?"
So, here's how it seems to work in the Bible:
God's will is for us all to be saved.
God calls us to join God's Kingdom.
God comes and lives right amongst us, showing us the way to live.
God is willing to be right at our side, through oppression, through poverty, through hatred, through torture and even through death.
BUT God overcomes death, torture, hatred, oppression, injustice - all these things that God hates and that stir God's anger - by the power of God's grace.
God's Spirit comes amongst us, calling us all.
God testifies to us all, through creation, through the Spirit, through one another, calling us to join the feast.
We choose to heed the call or not. Our acting in a Free Will manner in no way impugns the sovereignty of God anymore than the fact that God doesn't command us to sin impugns the sovereignty of God.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
~Rev 22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
~Isa 45
God calls us all, and God's call is what can waken the dead, do you doubt it?
The thing is, Stan, there are some verses in the Bible that SOUND like God only "chooses" or calls a few, "The Elect." And yet there are other passages that make it sound like God calls everyone.
You apparently feel more comfortable embracing the "elect" point of view and setting aside or explaining away the "all" point of view. I believe that the "all" point of view is the predominant view found in the Bible and explain away the "elect" point of view. BOTH ideas CAN be argued biblically. I'm not sure that we can settle what the church has not settled for 2000 years (or however long this discussion has been going on - I don't know that this was a topic of concern in the early church).
Dan Trabue: "I'm not sure that this is a persistent biblical theme) and those that are spiritually dead can come to life when God calls them."
Are you serious? In the King James, look up "quicken" or "quickening". Try, for instance, "born again", "new life", and so on. It is a running theme.
But, for a brief, glimmering moment we got a little closer. "Those who are spiritually dead can come to life when God calls them." Yes! Indeed! But ... then what? Apparently God brings these people to life by calling them, determines if they are willing to choose Him, and then lets them die again if they're not? Not in my understanding.
Jesus said, "You didn't choose Me, but I chose you." He said, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Not all are chosen, and we don't do the choosing. You won't find anything that says all are chosen, and if you do, you've undercut God's sovereignty because He chose everyone ... and failed.
But I'm still completely and totally stumped. "Our acting in a Free Will manner in no way impugns the sovereignty of God" you said. If our Free Will operated in accordance with God's will, then I'd agree. But when God wills something that our Free Will prohibits ... well, look at it this way. Two wills are at work in this equation. The one that comes out on top is the one that is sovereign. If God is limited by Man's Free Will, then Man's Free Will is sovereign.
And while you gave me some references that calls us to choose, I haven't seen anything about God's nature surrendering to Man's Will.
Good night, gracie...
well, look at it this way. Two wills are at work in this equation. The one that comes out on top is the one that is sovereign. If God is limited by Man's Free Will, then Man's Free Will is sovereign.
I suppose we can agree that this is just your attempt at reasoning, that there's nothing in the Bible like this?
As to the reasoning, the "one that comes out on top is sovereign?"
If I have a child and I tell that child that I want him to choose a college to attend - it's his choice. I'd like for him to attend my alma mater, but I want him to decide for himself. In the end, he chooses another school.
Does that mean that he is sovereign because he chose a school that was not my first choice for him?
OR am I sovereign because it was my will that he chooses one for himself?
God's will is for us, first of all, to choose this day who we will serve. God's wish, as you note, God's desire is that none would perish, but God's primary will is that we choose for ourselves. If God merely chooses for us, then we are automatons, robots who have no say in the matter. But God does not choose for us, God's Sovereign Will is that we choose ourselves.
If we choose something other than what God wishes for us, then God's ultimate Will has been done, even though it breaks God's heart.
That seems to me what is the logical conclusion one would reach after reading all that the Bible has to say about God, humanity, sin, and choice.
Feel free to disagree.
Just came ac across your blog, and I was very pleased to see a blogger who actually affirms election (and presumably Calvinism?). Going to read more of your posts now...
Welcome, True. Look around. I have a whole group of posts marked "Reformed Theology" that might be of interest (along with -- I like to think -- a whole lot of other stuff).
No, Dan, "one that comes out on top is sovereign" is not in the Bible. What is in the Bible is that God always comes out on top. What is in the Bible is that God "works all things after the counsel of His will." Now, if I count up all the things that fall under "all things" and then look at what's left, that's what would fall under something besides God's will -- which would be nothing.
Apparently you see no contradiction between "It is God's will that no human being should perish" and "Some perish". It appears (and I think you've confirmed this elsewhere) that the highest priority on God's heart is Man's autonomy. In other words, God's will is that Man make his choices freely. So if Man makes His choices freely, then God's will has been accomplished. For that unique and odd claim, it would be very interesting to see some scriptural support.
As for me, I wrote on Autonomy fairly recently.
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