Pope John Paul II and Pope John XXIII were declared saints in the Roman Catholic Church Sunday. "Canonized" they call it. They are "to be venerated by the whole church." It's one of those things that differentiates the Roman Catholic Church from the Protestant church. We go with "'Saints' refers to all believers ... you know, like it's used in the Bible."
One of the accusations of the Protestants against the Catholics is this whole "worship of the saints" thing. "They're worshiping saints, for Pete's sake! That's idolatry!" And, of course, the Catholics answer, "No, we're not. We're just following the Scripture that says that the prayers of a righteous man avail much. Saints are righteous. We're just asking for their help." And someone might pause in their assault at that point ... until you hear the kinds of "prayers to the saints" that they're offering.
I saw a news story the other day that included a bit about a woman who met John Paul II. Afterwards she dedicated her life to service in him, even after he died. Her money quote: "I'm just waiting for the next thing John Paul II wants me to do." That's not mere "veneration". That's worship.
Worse, there's the whole "Mary, mother of Jesus" thing. Sure, Jesus was God and, sure, Mary was His mother, but they take the phrase "mother of God" to a whole other level. She is officially "Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, and Advocate." "Co-redemptrix"! That's not mere "veneration". So we end up back in difficult territory.
In the media, the terms "Catholic" and "Christian" are synonymous. Likely as not, if they want a "Christian" representative in a story of some sort, it will very likely be a Roman Catholic. I have to wonder, though. If we are saved by faith, not by works, and if their entire system is set up under structure we are commanded to avoid (1 Cor 10:14; 1 John 5:21), you have to wonder how "Christian" and "Roman Catholic" can coincide. Are there genuine Christians in the Roman Catholic Church? I'd have to guess that there are. But I'd have to say it's not due to the official Roman Catholic doctrine.
14 comments:
Neil said:
"Are there genuine Christians in the Roman Catholic Church? I'd have to guess that there are. But I'd have to say it's not due to the official Roman Catholic doctrine."
Exactly. There are some "bad" Catholic churches that teach Protestant-like doctrines. I've talked to Catholics who agree with the biblical definition of justification, who don't believe in purgatory, etc., but don't realize they are disagreeing with Rome.
Like any group, including Christianity, there will always be those in amongst the the "faithful" who appear to be but are not. You'll find that in the Moslem world where some preach tolerance while their Scriptures demand war against the infidels and amongst the Catholics where they trust in Christ alone where their doctrines preach merit and purgatory and amongst Christians where they believe in works-based salvation where their Scriptures call for "saved by grace through faith in Christ alone".
I've met many Christians who were still Catholics due to family reasons. They became Christian in spite of the Catholic teachings. You have to admit that they do have fundamental teachings hidden amongst their dogma, which can be found by those who are seeking.
So there can be Christians in the Catholic church, but often they continue under the many burdens placed upon them by Rome.
I always ask those who pray to Mary and the saints to show me in Scripture where it says we are to pray to anyone but God.
I also point out that in the Bible, ALL Christians are saints.
Exactly, Glenn.
The Church started by 33 AD is still on Earth and if you Truly search God daily ; you will end-up finding ! Jesus came to Earth through Mother Mary. He should have come straight without a mother ? He respected Parents and we [Catholics] respect his parents. If you THINK it's worship; then ask God to show the difference between True Church and Fake Churches [Using God's Word to do Business].
Mary Is The Safest, Easiest, Shortest & Perfect Way Of Approaching Jesus.
I know by Experience ! Mother Mary gave me a spiritual gift last year! She is Alive so as her Son ! God Bless you !
To my readers (not Shan),
This is what I was talking about. This isn't veneration; this is worship.
To Shan,
I'm sure it's a warm and wonderful idea you have there about Mother Mary and getting to Jesus ... except I don't find it in the pages of Scripture, so I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.
To Stan,
The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).
This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).
And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17).
Yes, Shan, you're offering me standard Roman Catholic doctrine. You have to understand that I don't agree with standard Roman Catholic doctrine in a number of areas ... including the worship of anyone accept the One True God.
That may sound harsh. I don't intend it as such. But you telling me why YOU buy into that belief doesn't give me a reason to buy into that belief. "Because tradition said so at some point" won't work for me without biblical backing.
We worship only God. We Love & Respect his creations ! If anyone one give the place of God to another person/thing is idolatry as mentioned in the Bible. Pictures/Statues are Symbols to Focus on Prayer. There is Power in Prayer and when you Believe.
We have Living Saints in Catholic Church www.miraclesofthechurch.com and I know the Power of the Rosary. God is with us ! . Since God gave us FREE WILL ! It's upto us to Accept or Reject his Church ! I too have some doubts but I just BELIEVE ! Limited mind can't grasp things like Trinity. Can you show the word 'Trinity' in the Bible ?
Better you research EARLY Church Fathers Writings and questions like When did Holy Scriptures were combined and called it "The Bible" ?
Ignatius lived from around A.D. 35 to 107.
The Greek root of the term catholic means "according to the whole" or “universal.” Ignatius uses the term to refer to the visible and authoritative Church:
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8
After all, God can give you Wisdom & Understanding ! God Bless you more ! Mother Mary, Pray for us sinners !
Thanks, Shan.
One suggestion. Don't assume. Don't assume I haven't read and researched early Church Fathers, their writings, the biblical Trinity, etc. And I know the definition of "catholic" (lowercase) and embrace the catholic (lowercase) Church (uppercase). Because I disagree with the Roman Catholic church doesn't mean I haven't examined these questions. It means I disagree with certain doctrines of the Roman Catholic church.
When Paul spoke of "traditions" handed down by the apostles, he was talking about the truths they received from God and then handed them down in person to the Thessalonians (2 Thes 2:15) and others (2 Tim 2:2). He also said, in Col. 2:8, to "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on HUMAN tradition [such as from the Papist church]..."
Paul was not talking about Papist traditions made up centuries later (e.g.all the dogma about Mary, the Mass, Indulgences, purgatory, the Magisterium, papal infallibility, relics, etc), none of which have any basis in Scripture.
As Christians, We BELIEVE the Holy Bible. May God guide us to ALL Truth / Fullness of Faith....
Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have NO LIFE IN YOU. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. (John 6:53-56) #Eucharist
Catholics BELIEVE we take IN Jesus in EVERY HOLY MASS ! Even you don't agree with other dogmas it's ok ! What's MOST IMPORTANT is THIS ! If Jesus can turn Water into Wine. Does Jesus have the Power to turn Vine into his Blood and Bread into his Flesh? We have many Eucharistic Miracles happened throughout the History: www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
I was a lukewarm Catholic before and End up having a Spiritual gift given by Mother Mary.
Here is my gift. I was guided by a living Christian [a saint but a sinner]. Praise the Lord ! That's God's power. God IS with US ! www.facebook.com/767119596668579/videos/vb.767119596668579/862212763825928/?type=2&theater
Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27 )
'And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual.
Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else’s scrutiny.
“For who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.' (1 Corinthians 2:13-16)
"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is DEAD." (James 2:17 )
"Now he is God NOT of the dead, but of the LIVING; for to him all of them are alive.” (Luke 20:38 )
"And no wonder! Even Satan disguises himself as an Angel of LIGHT." (2 Corinthians 11:14 )
We believe in a Living God ! Meditate on above Verses ! If you really have Holy Spirit, then you MUST have Gifts of Holy Spirit. That's not enough because devil can still use us for his purposes. I know by experience. If you have LOVE in Every ACT/DEED you did before. God is with you ! If not. Someone else is with you.
Trinity is Dogma came later ! You don't BELIEVE that ? Jesus reveals his Truths first through Apostles then later through other Saints. If you are Pride of yourselves and don't like to be Humble and BELIEVE the other Truths. It's your choice ! God never force.
"We never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son." -Saint Louis Marie de Montfort
“Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.” -Saint Maximilian Kolbe
"If you invoke the Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you." -St. John Vianney
If you BELIEVE for 1 second even at your last moment and say, "Mother Mary, Pray for me". She will save you from Hell. Jesus listened to his Mother at Wedding of Cena and turned Water into Wine. Jesus spoke in a weird way "Woman" because Jesus is God. Why would Jesus give an Apostle his Mother at the Foot of the Cross before he died if he had other brothers/sisters ?
Read more if You like to go to Heaven in the Short way:
www.catholicbible101.com/maryversusthedevil.htm
"If you invoke the Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you."
I wonder why Jesus didn't do that in the desert rather than merely quoting Scripture?
"If you BELIEVE for 1 second even at your last moment and say, "Mother Mary, Pray for me". She will save you from Hell."
This is what we refer to as a contradiction of Tradition and Scripture. Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father but by Me", and you're perfectly happy with Mary as a "co-redemptrix". Go to heaven the short way? I'm sorry. Paul calls that no way at all (Gal 1:6-9).
Oh, and why would Jesus ask John to care for His mother? Could it be that His brothers were not His followers at the time? Well, it could for those of us who are not first bound by Tradition rather than Scripture.
Shan,
I ask you to take time to examine my article about the Catholic Virgin Mary compared to the Biblical Mary. The Catholic Church made a whole new Mary who has nothing to do with the mother of Jesus.
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/06/mary-mother-of-church-is-not-mary-of.html
Also, the Catholic Eucharist is unbiblical and idolatrous, as I amply demonstrate.
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/06/catholic-eucharist-unbiblical-and.html
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