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Saturday, October 31, 2009

Sovereign ... or not?

In a recent conversation that wandered from "Can you lose your salvation?" to "free will", I made this statement: "You have a very scary God whose will is held captive by His creatures, since He is obligated to always allow them to do whatever they want to do. It is inevitable that at some point someone will do something that will be outside of God's will and God's sovereignty will be completely terminated (instead of 'mostly dead' like it is now)." This elicited the very understandable "Huh??!!" kind of response. "Are you saying that people NOW do everything that is within God's will? That when Hitler killed millions, THAT was within God's will?? That when rape and child abuse occur, THOSE are within God's will? I can't imagine you truly think that, but you tell me."

It is a reasonable response and demands a reasonable explanation. Am I actually claiming that all that occurs on this planet is within God's will? I mean, how can that be??!! And I see the problem ... but do you see the other problem? There are multiple places in Scripture that assign to God the term "Sovereign". In 1 Tim 6:15 He is, in fact, the only Sovereign. We also read in Eph 1:11 that God works all things after the counsel of His will. So now we have a problem. Either my outrageous assertion that everything that happens on this planet falls within the will of God is true as it lines up with these passages, or these passages are just as wrong as my assertion is. So what do we do?

Well, let's try it from a human perspective (first), understanding first of all that we are not sovereign. We only like to think we are. So, I tell my wife, "Wouldn't it be nice to have an RV to travel around in" or I tell my grandson, "Clean up your room" and I have expressed my will, have I not? Of course, these are actually two types of "will". One is a wish, something that I don't even expect to have, and the other is a command which may or may not be obeyed. The theological terms for these types of will are "permissive will" and "preceptive will". In one case I offered a desire with not real intention of fulfilling it, and in the other I offered a command that ought to be fulfilled ... but might not. As humans we can understand these categories.

God also has these two types of wills. We know, for instance, that God "desires all people to be saved", but we also know that it won't happen. This would be His "permissive will", something He would like but doesn't actually intend to fulfill. We also know, for instance, that adultery is against the will of God because He said, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." We know, again, that people commit adultery, so God's precept in this case doesn't occur. So God shares these two types of will with humans. There is -- must be -- a third type of will of God, however, if the passages I referenced above are to be held as true and valid. This will is not present in humans because God is the "only Sovereign". This will the theologians refer to as God's "decretive will". This will always occurs ... if God is actually Sovereign. This will is the one that agrees with Eph 1:11 -- God works all things after the counsel of His will. This will would encompass everything that occurs on this planet, and nothing that occurs would fall outside of this will of God.

Let me offer an example. Joseph's brothers first threatened to kill him, then sold him into slavery. It is not possible to call that "God's will" in either the sense that He would desire it ("Wow, I sure wish Joseph's brothers would toss him in a well and sell him off as slave.") or that it was in line with His commandments (as evidenced by the fact that they lied to their father about it). It was not in line with God's will in those senses. However, in the end, this sin saved his family and the Jewish race. So we hear Joseph say to his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." There are multiple things in play in that sentence. First, they are not off the hook. It was evil and they are liable. Second, God planned for it to happen to bring about an end that He wanted. He didn't cause it. He allowed it because it fit with His plans. Third, He didn't merely work it out. "Oh, my, that's a bad thing! Now, how can I work this out so it becomes good?" No, He meant it for good. He used their sin for His plan.

Of course, there is a much better example. The sin of Joseph's brothers was minor compared to this one. This example is the murder of God's innocent Son. About this we read:
"The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed -- for truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place" (Acts 4:26-28).
On one hand, then, we have the very clear indictment that these people had set themselves against God, and on the other hand we have the undeniable claim that they carried out "whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place", an undeniable example of both evil and "God's will".

Logically, then, if the Bible is true when it claims that God is the only Sovereign and if it is true that God works all things after the counsel of His will, then it is unavoidably true that all things that occur fall within God's will in some sense. Biblically we know that 1) God states His will in ways that do not come to pass and 2) God works all things after His will. Experience tells us that some things will be a violation of His wishes (like people that aren't saved) and some things will violate His precepts (like committing known sin). But if we have a God who simply has things that occur outside of His ultimate, Sovereign will, then He is not Sovereign and we are without hope because the Creator has succumbed to the creation.

46 comments:

Dan Trabue said...

Stan said...

But if we have a God who simply has things that occur outside of His ultimate, Sovereign will, then He is not Sovereign and we are without hope because the Creator has succumbed to the creation.

Could it be that perhaps we have a disagreement on the definition of the word Sovereign?

I think it would be extremely helpful if you could define both “sovereign” and “free will” as you understand them.

Do you know what the term “sovereign” means when it is used in the Bible? What the Hebrew or Greek word(s) actually mean?

From Easton’s Bible Dictionary, we find this definition:

Sovereignty - of God, his absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure

What definition are you using? And free will?

Stan said...

Definitions. Good idea. Let's see ... "Sovereign" means "the color blue in all its hues" and "free will" is defined as "the ability to visit other worlds in your dreams". I mean, seriously, Dan, how many definitions are there. I'm using the same definitions you are. According to Theopedia, "The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission." And "free will" is standard. I'm not using anything different than you. I define it as the ability to make choices in accordance with one's nature without external coercion.

Dan Trabue said...

I don't mean to upset you. It's just sometimes you seem to be using non-standard definitions for some words or at least I'm not getting how you're using words sometimes. So, in an effort to be clear, I thought I'd ask for definitions first. Doesn't that make sense?

In this case, for instance, you say sovereign means: "the teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission."

Okay. So, God created us with free will - the ability to choose right and wrong and God is sovereign - nothing happens without his permission. We agree on these definitions.

So, if we have free will and God MADE us that way, giving us permission to make choices with our free will, then how is that in any way suggest that God is not sovereign. It seems to be sovereign, by definition.

AND, if we have free will then why CAN'T we choose to leave God's grace behind?

Stan said...

So if God wills that, say, Bob is to be saved and Bob chooses not to, who wins? If God wills that Ted and Joan remain married and Joan divorces Ted, God is not Sovereign. If the good that God intended for Bill was to live until he was 95 and someone chooses to run him over at 23, he really did die before His time and God failed to work all things together for Bill's good. I can go on like this for a long time. The point is if God gives Man unlimited Free Will, then God cannot be deemed Sovereign -- certainly not the only Sovereign -- and God's will in any ultimate sense will not occur.

Dan Trabue said...

So if God wills that, say, Bob is to be saved and Bob chooses not to, who wins?

I don't see it as a contest. But God's will is done.

God's will is that ALL be saved BUT God ALSO wills that people make that decision. God's desired will and God's allowed will.

What do you say? That if God wishes for Bob to be saved and God does not want to be saved, that God forces Bob to be saved?

Ryan said...

Springing from that conversation, Dan had mentioned that He would be appalled to learn that you think that what Hitler did, and what child abusers and rapists do is a part of God's will. But I would wonder how these verses could be justified any other way?

Deuteronomy 32:39 “‘See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.’”

1 Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts.”

1 Samuel 12:11-12 “Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.”

1 Kings 22:23 “Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”

Proverbs 16:4 “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

Proverbs 21:1 “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.”

Isaiah 45:6-7 “...that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.”

Isaiah 63:17 “Why O Lord, do You cause us to stray from Your ways and harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.”

Lamentations 3:37-38 “Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?”

Amos 3:6 “If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?”

Ephesians 1:11 “...also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will...”

2 Thessalonians 2:11 “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,”

Revelation 17:17 “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a commone purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.”

And that's just the tip of the iceberg on verses that point to God's sovereignty. Would you, Dan, agree that God purposed before time that certain men would sin, as he purposed that His Son would come and die (someone would have to sin for that to happen...Acts 3:18, 4:27-28, among others)?

I feel somewhat sacrilegious for even asking this questions, but would it be wrong to suggest (I don't know the answer to this, so I'm really looking for help...this isn't rhetorical) that God is the author of evil and sin without suggesting that He is evil or a sinner if speaking in the same way that the author of a book can have his characters commit sins but remain sinless...even good. There is, in a sense, a different level of reality, but isn't that somewhat so with us and God?

Dan Trabue said...

I would wonder how these verses could be justified any other way?

Metaphor? Hyperbole? Makes a whole lot more sense than suggesting that God slaughters Jews and gays, that God abuses babies, that God molests puppies.

Besides, we ALSO know God causes no one to sin. We sin of our own free will, when we knowingly choose wrong instead of right.

Is it your position, Ryan, that God makes people sin? And that when someone chooses to do good, that God made them do that?

Ryan asked...

Would you, Dan, agree that God purposed before time that certain men would sin, as he purposed that His Son would come and die

God certainly KNEW that people would sin, KNEW that Jesus would suffer and die. But did God CAUSE people to sin? No. Does that not strike you as blasphemous, to suggest that God MAKES us sin? Not to mention illogical?

I mean, think of the last time you sinned? Are you saying you couldn't help yourself? That you wanted to choose to not lie, but God made you lie?

I'm short on time, I'll come back later with some biblical support for my position. But just logically, think about it: YOU are the author of your life. YOU choose to sin or to do good. You can't blame God for your actions. Don't you agree with this?

I mean, if God is controlling us, making us sin when we sin and do good when we do good, then we're not really created in God's image. Further, God couldn't hold us accountable for our actions if they weren't OUR actions, but actions forced upon us against our will.

Am I misunderstanding you?

Stan said...

Stan asked: "So if God wills that, say, Bob is to be saved and Bob chooses not to, who wins?"

Dan Trabue answered: "I don't see it as a contest. But God's will is done."

QED. If God wills to save Bob and Bob wills not to be saved, Bob's will wins over God's will. God's will, then, is secondary, subservient to, Man's will. God's "sovereign will" -- the one that always comes to pass -- is that Man does whatever he chooses to do. That, by your definition, is "sovereign", and that, by my definition (or any other definition I can find), is not "sovereign" by any stretch of the imagination.

Stan said...

Dan Trabue: "...God molests puppies."

Nice. Prove a point not made. It's a standard problem in a dialog. Make your point so emotionally that it is not possible to disagree. Well done. Illogical, but well done.

Dan Trabue: "But did God CAUSE people to sin?"

Another prime example. Did someone say, "God forced people to sin"? Is there someone making such a nonsensical argument? Yet, somehow, when you read "God purposed" you understand (although no one is suggesting it) "God forced" or "God caused". Again, your argument is emotionally forceful but completely beside the point. No one is arguing that God molests puppies or that God makes people sin.

You are arguing that God surrendered His will to Man, that the Creator gave up His Sovereignty to His creation, that God is held captive by our will and that the Bible cannot be read in any sort of literal way (unless, of course, it says something literally that agrees with your views).

Ryan,

I understand (and even agree) with your approach, but you must understand that if the Bible says something like "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?", Dan will deny it. Metaphor. Hyperbole. Certainly not actual. God is subservient to Man, must observe Man's sense of right and wrong, and cannot do all those things the Bible says He does. Too woodenly literal, Ryan. You need to reshape the Bible so it doesn't mean it when it says those things. Others have done it. Why can't you?

Dan Trabue said...

Stan said...

God is subservient to Man, must observe Man's sense of right and wrong, and cannot do all those things the Bible says He does.

Brother Stan, we can discuss things without the snotty remarks. I ask questions not to accuse, but to clarify. If I ASK "Did God cause people to sin?" the reason I ask is to clarify what you (or Ryan) think.

The answer, then, is not a snotty "God is subservient to man," - to insinuate falsely that I believe in such idiocy when I clearly don't nor have I ever suggested that I do - but, "No, God does not cause people to sin, in my opinion."

It's late so tonight I'll just conclude with: I don't think that word (sovereign) means what you think it does.

A sovereign being can wish for something to happen, but that does not mean that it will happen. A king might want his people to all dress in purple, but that does not mean everyone WILL dress in purple. A TYRANT, however, might go out and FORCE his people to dress in purple.

It appears that you confuse Sovereignty with Tyranny.

Dan Trabue said...

Okay, let me take one more quick stab at this. Stan said...

You are arguing that God surrendered His will to Man, that the Creator gave up His Sovereignty to His creation, that God is held captive by our will and that the Bible cannot be read in any sort of literal way

Read my words that I actually wrote again. No. I am NOT arguing that God surrendered God's Will to humanity. You can tell that because it's not in anything I have written. I don't believe it. I have not said it. Is that clear enough?

God's will is to create us with free will so that we can freely choose God or not. That IS God's will. God does not surrender God's will when we make decisions for ourselves. It's how God made us.

Nor does God deciding to create us with free wills somehow say that God is not sovereign. Read the definition of Sovereign again (from Easton's Bible dictionary):

absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure

It is God's good pleasure to create us with free will so that we can choose to embrace God's company or not.

If I FORCED my children to "love me," well, what is that love worth? If they have no choice but to love me, then it is not free will, and it is not love.

It is God's good pleasure to create us with free will. When we exercise that free will, that does not impinge upon God's sovereignty. What you're saying makes no sense given the definition of the word. HOW does God deciding to give us free will and us exercising that free will impinge upon God's "absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure?"

Your definition of Sovereignty of God from Theopedia says that Nothing happens without God's direction and permission. But God GAVE us permission to make decisions for ourselves, and God's desire is that we choose to follow God, but we have to choose to do that and we can choose Yes or No, by God's permission.

It simply does not impinge upon God's sovereignty, as the word is commonly defined and as your definition has it.

Dan Trabue said...

I'm sorry, let me back up. I think I must be misunderstanding you somewhere. Let me return to your concluding remark in this post, you stated:

Experience tells us that some things will be a violation of His wishes (like people that aren't saved) and some things will violate His precepts (like committing known sin).

Yes, we agree. Some things are a violation of God's wishes. God wishes for ALL people to be saved, but not all people are saved.

And, yes, we agree. Sometimes our actions will violate God's precepts (as in when we choose to commit sin).

Am I re-stating your position correctly? When we choose to sin, it is a violation of God's will, right? When anyone does not accept God's grace, that is a violation of God's will, since God's will is that none should perish ("[God is] not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." KJV).

I guess maybe you're saying that there is a difference between God's "wish" (which is the word you use above) and God's will? And that when God "lets us" violate a precept and sin, that somehow is not a violation of God's will??

Can you understand where I'm confused with what your position is?

If we agree there (and I expect that we don't, but can't tell you for the life of me why), then perhaps you can explain what you mean by this comment...

But if we have a God who simply has things that occur outside of His ultimate, Sovereign will, then He is not Sovereign

I thought we just said that these things (sin, people dying in sin) happen outside of God's will/wish. So, if that is the case, what does that last sentence mean?

Dan Trabue said...

Stan said...

Yet, somehow, when you read "God purposed" you understand (although no one is suggesting it) "God forced" or "God caused".

(with "God purposed" being the phrase that Ryan used).

By all means, explain what anyone means by "purposed." That was my intent in asking questions.

Perhaps you can understand my confusion, since the definition of "purposed" is To intend or resolve to perform or accomplish. God "INTENDED to perform" sin in others sounds like that God caused or forced. So, tell me, what DO you (anyone) mean by that?

Some passages that deal with the suggestion that God might cause us to sin...

God's work is perfect, For all God's ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is God. (Deuteronomy 32:4)

Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe. (2 Chronicles 19:7)

Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. (Job 34:10)

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. (Psalm 5:4)

To declare that the LORD is upright; God is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in God. (Psalm 92:15)


There is NO unrighteousness in God. No evil dwells within God.

I conclude from that, that God would not desire, wish, cause or otherwise cause or encourage anyone to sin or do evil. Are we agreed upon that?

Stan said...

No one is arguing that God makes people do evil.

Stan said...

Look, Dan, you take offense that I suggest you deny God's Sovereignty. You believe that God gave Man ULTIMATE FREE WILL, an ability to violate God's own ultimate will, so that even if God's ultimate will was that Bob was to be saved, God's ultimate will would not come to pass if Bob chose not to. That, by your definition, is "sovereignty." And you defend it by applying human sovereignty to God. "A king might want his people to all dress in purple, but that does not mean everyone WILL dress in purple." You and I are talking about a different Bible, a different sovereignty, and a different God.

On "purpose", let's say that I want my kids to clean their room. I also know that they love chocolate chip cookies. I tell them, "If you clean your room, you can have some of these cookies", knowing that they can't help but clean their room to get the cookies. I forced them, then, to clean their room ... right? No. But I accomplished my purpose where they chose to clean their room. And I'm just a human. God has better and more effective ways. But you cannot seem to see it as any possibility except violating Man's FREE WILL (written in all caps because you apparently believe Man's FREE WILL to be inviolable).

Look, I cannot find anything in Scripture that even suggests that God cannot or will not intervene in human will. I cannot make any sense of "God is sovereign and His will is conditioned on Man's choices." It is inconsistent with Scripture and utterly illogical to me to think that God's only will is that Man has free will, and everything else is just a wish on His part. Clearly you and I differ on what Sovereignty means, in what (if any) sense God is actually Sovereign, what it means to be the only Sovereign, and what "snotty remarks" means. You continue to argue (on my behalf) that I favor some sort of view of a tyrannical God who forces people to sin despite the fact that I've denied it repeatedly. Since you cannot take disagreement and you refuse to understand what we're saying and you cannot let go of ascribing to me positions I've denied, wouldn't it be better if you returned to your promise to never read my blog again?

Dan Trabue said...

Stan said...

No one is arguing that God makes people do evil.

I'm very glad to hear that. I was not at all sure that this was the case, that is why I asked. I didn't accuse anyone of saying that, but rather I asked for clarification. That seems an appropriate way to handle such circumstances.


Stan said...

Look, Dan, you take offense that I suggest you deny God's Sovereignty.

Yes, since I have not done so, and since it is not my position, I would prefer that you not misstate my position (what you said: "You are arguing that God surrendered His will to Man" - I am NOT doing that, have not stated it, don't think it).

Is that unreasonable? (Again, I'm not making any accusations, I'm asking if it is unreasonable that I would expect you NOT to mischaracterize my position and, in fact, would find it brotherly, Christian and appropriate that an apology would be forthcoming for this misrepresentation. Nothing elaborate, just an acknowledgement of the mistake - "I'm sorry Dan, I misunderstood your position..." something like that.)

Stan said...

You believe that God gave Man ULTIMATE FREE WILL, an ability to violate God's own ultimate will...

I have not said that, I do not believe that.

I HAVE said that humanity has free will, by the common definition that we all agree upon. We have the ability to choose right and wrong. That is my position. I don't know what you mean by "ULTIMATE FREE WILL," but I believe we have free will. This is not the same as the "ability to violate God's own ultimate will."

I have not stated it, don't believe it and would appreciate if you would not misrepresent my position.

I believe God's "ultimate will" is that we choose to follow God. And then, God gave us the ability to make that choice.

What God doesn't do, I don't believe, is force us to make that choice.

You have said that God does not force us to do things against our will, right? So, I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Perhaps if you clarified your position, per my earlier requests for clarification?

For instance, is there a simple answer to this question: DOES God force people to do things they don't want to do?

Is it your position that God does NOT want everyone to be saved (ie, that "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but ALL should come to repentance," as the Bible says)?

It appears you don't believe humans have free will, or that they sometimes do and sometimes don't. Could you clarify this?

WHEN do people have free will and when don't we?

If you could clarify your position, it would help me understand what you're saying.

If you would stick to what I've actually said, it would help you not to misrepresent my position and I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

Dan Trabue said...

Stan said...

You continue to argue (on my behalf) that I favor some sort of view of a tyrannical God who forces people to sin despite the fact that I've denied it repeatedly.

I do not do this. I have not done this. I have asked questions to seek clarification. You do understand the difference between making accusations (what you have done about my position) and asking questions (what I have done in seeking to understand your position), right?

I DID say, "It appears that you confuse Sovereignty with Tyranny," but the key word there is APPEARS. I'm seeking understanding of your position. You seem to me to be defining sovereign in some other way than the standard definition. It appears to me that you are saying God forces God's will on people. But then, I see right here that you are denying that.

So, again, if you could answer my questions, it would help me understand your position.

If you're merely saying that God works in various ways to encourage us to do God's will, then I agree 100% and we don't have a disagreement. In your kids/cookies example, that now appears to be what you're saying. But then, if that's the case, why do you keep thinking that I'm saying we have sovereignty over God merely because we get to choose right and wrong, per God's design.

Do you or do you not think that humanity has the ability to choose right and wrong (ie, free will)?

I am not at all clear on where you're disagreeing with me. The goalposts feel like they keep moving.

Since you cannot take disagreement and you refuse to understand what we're saying and you cannot let go of ascribing to me positions I've denied, wouldn't it be better if you returned to your promise to never read my blog again?

I can take disagreement. I'd rather that you didn't misrepresent my position, that's all I'm saying.

I'm sorry if it came across that I have ascribed positions to you that you don't hold. I have not, in my actual words, done this, but apparently my words feel like to you that I have, and for that, I am sorry. I am simply trying to understand your position. Hence, the questions I have asked.

Stan said...

Dan Trabue: "I have not stated it, don't believe it and would appreciate if you would not misrepresent my position."

Jesus didn't use the words "militarism" or "consumerism", but you see them clearly in His teachings. You didn't (in this series of comments) use those words ... but you have stated the position clearly. Back in the "Challenge of Contradictions" post where I listed two sets of passages and asked the readers to make sense of them, you did your part. I restated what I understood your position to be and asked you to clarify: "In the grand scheme of things, that Man's Free Will is the ultimate determination of what occurs." Your reply: "Yes, you are getting my position correctly." That is what you said. That is what you have continued to affirm. God's "Sovereignty" is that He makes Man's free will sovereign, that "Man's Free Will is the ultimate determination of what occurs." That's what you concurred with. When I asked you about Bob, our fictional guy, whom God willed to save but who chose not to be, you affirmed that Bob's will would be done. But when I say that you argue that Man's will supercedes God's will, you deny it. Okay. Fine. Make some sense of that for me. You appear to have a Deist approach, a view that God is sort of "hands off" in human affairs and that humans are capable of doing most anything. Any suggestion to the contrary in Scripture is metaphor or hyperbole. Any Scripture that suggests God is involved is the equivalent of "molesting puppies". And I'm overstating your position? Make some sense for me, because I haven't leaped to any conclusions -- it's what you are saying.

The basic thrust of the post was to point out three types of wills with God. Two can be "violated". One cannot. You seem to ignore that one. Instead, you say, "If you're merely saying that God works in various ways to encourage us to do God's will, then I agree 100% and we don't have a disagreement." If "God's will" is merely "encouraged", it is not inviolable.

Finally, I have stated repeatedly that humans can make choices. Still, you ask me, "Do you or do you not think that humanity has the ability to choose right and wrong (ie, free will)?" Why? I've stated it repeatedly. Can unregenerate Man choose good? Not according to the Bible. That is outside of his nature. But he can choose what he does. I simply don't believe in Absolute, Unlimited human Free Will.

Dan Trabue said...

Okay, setting aside everything else for a minute, let me latch on to our agreement and figure out where we part. (I've put some of my main questions to you in bold.)

We both agree that humans can choose right and wrong.

Except, that you don't believe that unregenerate people can choose to do good. That the unsaved can't do good because it is outside of their nature, is that correct?

If so, what do you do, then, with the countless examples in the real world of unsaved people doing good?

For instance, before I was saved, I loved my mother, I gave her hugs and presents, drew her pictures and did things for no other reason than that I loved her.

Are you saying that this unsaved boy was NOT doing good by doing nice things for my mother?

Perhaps we need to define "good?"

You state...

Can unregenerate Man choose good? Not according to the Bible. That is outside of his nature. But he can choose what he does.

So, the unsaved CAN "choose what they do," but they can't choose to do good? Is that your position? What can they choose then, to do morally neutral things or to do evil?

Can the unsaved choose to accept God's salvation by God's grace?

When you say...

I simply don't believe in Absolute, Unlimited human Free Will.

Do you understand that this does not seem to me to be a coherent position? We have free will (the ability to choose right and wrong) but not unlimited free will (unlimited ability to choose right and wrong), is that your position? What does that mean?

In what way are we not free to choose right and wrong?

Dan Trabue said...

Stan said...

Jesus didn't use the words "militarism" or "consumerism", but you see them clearly in His teachings. You didn't (in this series of comments) use those words ... but you have stated the position clearly.

The difference between your comparison:

1. It IS indeed MY ESTIMATION that Jesus clearly talked against what we would call today militarism and consumerism. That IS my opinion. I could be wrong. If Jesus were to stand here and correct me, I would indeed be corrected.

2. ON THE OTHER HAND, you are saying that I (Dan Trabue) have clearly stated that I (Dan Trabue) believe that God is subservient to humanity.

While I can seek God's will and understanding the best I can, God is not here to personally correct me on the finer points of theology and philosophy.

You, on the other hand, only have to ASK me (Dan Trabue) what my (Dan Trabue's) opinion is on this matter. Speaking for myself (Dan Trabue) I can say fairly authoritatively that I (Dan Trabue) do NOT believe God is subservient to humanity.

While I may be mistaken on what Jesus taught and how best to describe that, I am clearly in a better position to know what I (Dan Trabue) think, certainly moreso than you (Stan Smith), seeing as how you (Stan Smith) are not me (Dan Trabue).

I'm an expert on few things but one thing I AM an expert on is my own opinion.

Stan said...

Dan Trabue: "What do you do, then, with the countless examples in the real world of unsaved people doing good?"

A problem of standards. What you (and most humans consider "good" is not, by God's standards, good. God's first and foremost standard for good is "No other gods in My presence." No natural man does that.

Dan Trabue: "Can the unsaved choose to accept God's salvation by God's grace?"

"God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim 2:25).

Dan Trabue: "Do you understand that this does not seem to me to be a coherent position?"

Of course it doesn't. You define "free will" as unlimited (we went through this already). If you make 99 uncoerced decisions and 1 coerced, it's not "free will" by your definition. Thus the problem.

As for your second comment, you didn't get my point, so comments on what you wrote would be pointless. I was comparing your rational conclusion that Jesus taught on those subjects with my rational conclusion that you deny God's Sovereignty. You missed that entirely.

Ryan said...

Dan,

Would you mind doing me a favor and heading back to the "Are You Lost" post and reading my last response...it's the second to last one. I don't think you saw it, and I think that some of what I said there answers some of the questions you just posed to Stan. I'd love to see what you have to say about it.

Dan Trabue said...

A problem of standards. What you (and most humans consider "good" is not, by God's standards, good. God's first and foremost standard for good is "No other gods in My presence." No natural man does that.


And you know this... How? Have you asked everyone and studied everyone's life to determine that no one has no other gods?

I think the problem is that you're defining words differently than standard English. A "Good deed" or action, by the most common understanding of the meaning of the term is a nice action, a kind deed. Doing something you don't have to do to help or ease or eliminate a problem.

Real people in the real world do good stuff all the time.

Again, I ask you, when I was an unsaved child doing kind things for my mother merely because I love her, was I not doing a good thing? Yes or no?

I think this might be a calvinist kind of thing, this thinking that everything we do is evil. That simply does not match the reality in this world.

Now, there is plenty of room for hyperbole. By comparison to God, perhaps even our good deeds are as filthy rags. But that IS hyperbole, an exaggeration to make a point. But in fact, people DO sometimes commit acts of kindness. Even the pagans do this, Jesus tells us.

So what do you do with the evidence of your eyes when you see an unsaved person do something good? Do you say that, even though it may SEEM good, it is actually bad, definitions be damned?

(And note, that is a question to try to clarify your position, not an accusation or anything).

You also stated:

You define "free will" as unlimited (we went through this already).

Indeed, we HAVE been through this. It's why I thought it important to understand what definitions we're using. I'm using the standard English definition: Free will means the ability to choose right and wrong. That's it. That's the definition and that's how I'm defining it.

There is no "unlimited" in my definition or usage, just the definition.

So, in what way are we NOT able to choose right and wrong?

Dan Trabue said...

So, I asked you:

"Can the unsaved choose to accept God's salvation by God's grace?"

And your response is:

"God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim 2:25).

So, help me out here. Is your answer, YES, people CAN choose to accept God's grace or NO, people CAN'T choose to accept God's grace?

I would sort of assume that your response means that you think, "No, unsaved people can't choose God's grace," but I am not at all clear, based on your response. And so, I ask the question again.

Stan said...

Note: Ryan is apparently having trouble posting, so he sent me this by email and asked me to put it up here. This is Ryan:

I would suggest that our will is not actually free like most people think it is, but that it is bound by it’s nature. Bubba, I hope you’re paying attention here, too, because this will answer some of your questions that you’ve had, as well. I would think (of course, I could be wrong) that we can agree that we come into this world with a sin nature. Stan made a great point in the comments section of the "Are You Lost" post that was quickly dismissed, but I’d like to revisit it. He said that you cannot choose to fly. Why not? Because it’s not in our nature to fly, just as we can’t choose to regenerate an amputated limb or swim underwater for hours without coming up for air. It isn’t in our nature to be able to do those things, so we can’t. “But,” you say, “that’s not fair that God would create some to fly, some to swim, some to be able to regenerate lost limbs, but I can’t do any of those things...I want to!” This is like our sin nature. We are by nature, objects of wrath. We are dead in our transgressions. A cadaver does not have the ability to choose to live ... the state that it is in does not lend itself to being able to choose this.

Lazarus wasn’t called from his death against his will, but he certainly could not have chosen to come out of the tomb on his own, because he was dead. What had to happen first? Christ had to regenerate him. At that point, he could choose to come out of the grave. Could he have said, “No thanks...I’m fine with being dead! I’m just gonna stay in here!” Well, yes, the option to say that was there, but he wasn’t going to. Was he dragged kicking and screaming back to life? Of course not.

This is the same thing that happens to non-believers. Dead in their transgressions, they don’t have the ability to understand the things of God, or do good.

Jeremiah 13:23 “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.”

John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless on is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.’”

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:63-65 “‘It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.’ For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And he said, ‘This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.’”

John 8:43-47 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18 “The word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.”

1 Corinthians 2:14 “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”

Stan said...

Note: The reason Ryan was having trouble posting his comment was because it had too many characters. Therefore, this is the rest of Ryan's comment.

So, as an unbeliever, I cannot choose God because it’s not within my nature to do so. It would be foolishness to me. I cannot choose God because I will not choose foolishness. But, God regenerates me, or brings me to spiritual life, and now, it would be foolishness not to choose God, just as it would have been foolish, now that Lazarus was regenerated, for him to tell Christ he was going to stay in the tomb...it just isn’t going to happen. In my sin nature, I serve me. It would be foolish to do anything that doesn’t ultimately help, exalt, or further me, in some way, at the core level of each choice. Notice that none of this suggests that choices aren’t made. None of this suggests that choices are forced. It is just to say that we can’t just pick between ‘good’ and ‘evil’ like you think we might be able to at first glance. To say that I was able to conjure up just enough actual ‘good’ in me to be able to choose Christ would be something to boast in. However, if God, in spite of myself, graciously chooses to grant me the gift of grace through faith, then I can’t boast, because I didn’t even do that myself. I know how hard this can be to wade through. I was once as repulsed by this as you seem to be. I say that just to say that I understand how you feel about this particular issue, and am more than happy to continue to try and answer the questions you're asking.

Stan said...

Dan Trabue: "And you know this... How?"

Yes, Dan, I did a comprehensive study of all human beings, their motives, and their processes and determined that not one had "no other gods". Silly, of course. I got it from my Bible, again. In your Bible, those things are metaphor or hyperbole. In mine, I have no reason to read them as anything but as written. So when I read "no one does good, not even one", I take that to mean "no one does good, not even one." When I read "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot", I take that to mean "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot." When I read "The natural Man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned", I get out my secret decoder ring, retranslate it with my secret code, and come up with "The natural Man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Note: Ryan's recent comment(s) deal with this.

Dan Trabue: "A 'Good deed' or action, by the most common understanding of the meaning of the term is a nice action, a kind deed."

Thus, the problem of standards. "Good" is a relative term defined by the standard by which you measure it. A "good dog" is not the same thing as a "good man". A "good meal" is not the same thing as a "good wife". People do indeed do "nice things", "kind deeds". My point is that this is a human measure by human standards. The "good" of which I speak is a Divine Standard. The standard in this case is perfection. And the only allowable source and purpose is God. (Or, "no other gods".) Since humans by nature do what they do for, at best, enlightened self-interest, humans by nature do not conform to God's standard of good.

Dan Trabue: "That simply does not match the reality in this world."

My point exactly. The "reality of this world" is humans with sin natures inclined only to evil, hostile to God, and setting their own standard for "good".

But, I'm amazed with your position. You're convinced that lots of unsaved people ("dead in their sins and trespasses") are perfectly capable of having a right relationship with God (the prerequisite for "no other gods")?

Ryan also deals with your other question --

Dan Trabue: "So, help me out here. Is your answer, YES, people CAN choose to accept God's grace or NO, people CAN'T choose to accept God's grace?"

I thought it was clear. The only way (according to the passage I offered as well as many others) that the unsaved can (has the ability to) choose to accept God's grace is if they are supernaturally enabled to do so by regeneration. (Obviously I believe that regeneration precedes faith.) So, yes, I believe that the unsaved can choose to accept God's grace if and when God enables them (which is what the verse said that I offered). (That is, things like "new life", "faith", "new nature", and "repentance" are gifts from God, granted as He chooses, and not to all.)

Ryan said...

Dan, just so you know, I've got some more questions for you, but I don't want to ask yet for fear that it would encourage you to skip the posts I've already left for you...still looking forward to your replies.

Dan Trabue said...

Ryan states...

I would suggest that our will is not actually free like most people think it is, but that it is bound by it’s nature...

...[Stan] said that you cannot choose to fly. Why not? Because it’s not in our nature to fly, just as we can’t choose to regenerate an amputated limb or swim underwater for hours without coming up for air.


Okay, so it appears that we AGREE:

1. That humanity CAN choose to do right or wrong. We have a free will.

2. That humanity has a "sinful nature," a tendency to sin, an innate inability to live perfectly.

3. That God does not force anyone to do anything.

4. That the Bible has places where hyperbole, parables, analogies and/or metaphors are used.

Am I correct so far?

HOWEVER, Ryan and Stan appear to think (correct me if I'm wrong)...

A. That our free will does not mean that we can always choose right or wrong.

B. You think that our sinful nature means that we can't choose to accept God's grace on our own.

C. That unregenerate people can't choose to do good acts (at least Ryan seems to think this).

Correct so far?

Dan Trabue said...

Some questions I have for you:

1. What of unregenerate people who DO good acts (this is more for Ryan, since Stan seems to agree with me that unsaved CAN choose to do good acts)? This observable reality would conflict with Ryan's statements.

2. What makes you think that Jesus teaching us to "Gouge your eye out" or "sell your belongings" is hyperbole but "no one is good," must be taken literally? The difference between the "gouge your eyes" verse and the "no one is good" verse is...? (By the way, I believe the verse is actually, "there is no one RIGHTEOUS..." not, "no one does good...," as you said, right? And you understand that I agree with the actual passage - no one IS fully righteous, like God - but not with your take - people DO do good things.)

3. Do you think that God truly wants no one to perish but for everyone to come to repentance and be saved, as the Bible teaches?

4. Ryan said: "So, as an unbeliever, I cannot choose God because it’s not within my nature to do so."

Says who? IF God is desiring that everyone be saved and IF God, therefore, calls us to repentance and offers us Grace and IF we recognize our sin (something we have to do in order to repent) and how it separates us from God, why CAN'T we choose to repent?

5. Ryan said: "Notice that none of this suggests that choices aren’t made. None of this suggests that choices are forced. It is just to say that we can’t just pick between ‘good’ and ‘evil’ like you think we might be able to at first glance."

So, we AGREE that we have the ability to make choices (choices between right and wrong?) and we AGREE that God does not force us to accept God's grace, so then, I'm left not knowing what you mean at all by that last line, "we can't just pick between good and evil..." - what does that mean?

6. IF a child loves his mother and IF that child out of love for that mother picks up his room and makes a present to give her and gives it to her with a hug, DID that child choose to do a good thing? IF a pagan soldier sees a hand grenade thrown at his comrades and out of love for his comrades, throws himself on the grenade, DID that soldier choose to do a good thing?

7. Stan said... "The only way... that the unsaved can (has the ability to) choose to accept God's grace is if they are supernaturally enabled to do so by regeneration."

What does that mean? God wants Stan to be saved, God calls Stan and Stan does or does not accept God's call...? Or Stan gets supernatural repentance powers? The ability to say, "Yes, God, you're right, I'm wrong. I'm a sinner in need of grace. I repent, come in to my life and be Lord..."? And without this supernatural repentance power, Stan CAN'T say all of that to God?

8. If you believe we can't accept God's grace on our own, what does it mean to do it with God's help?

I mean, I believe that God calls us and we either answer the call or don't answer the call ("Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts..." -Heb 3). God woos us, sends God's Spirit to convict us, sends messengers to help us, etc, God DOES help us get to the point where we repent and accept God's grace. But it is US doing the repenting, yes? If God made us do the repenting, then it isn't really repenting, is it?

Stan said...

Dan Trabue: "Stan seems to agree with me that unsaved CAN choose to do good acts"

I'll let Ryan respond to your comments to him, but this one addresses me ... and incorrectly. I agree with Ryan (and Paul) that there is none good, no, not one. I find no biblical reason to classify it as hyperbole. The only reason I can imagine to say it is hyperbole is "That's not my experience" ... the concept of interpreting Scripture from my experience (instead of vice versa).

I agree that unregenerate humans can choose to do things that are better than others -- classified by most as "good" ... just not by God.

Again, I'll let Ryan answer, but I need to point out that "If God made us do the repenting, then it isn't really repenting, is it?" is a misunderstanding of the position that repentance is granted.

Ryan said...

I've read, but it's bedtime...I'll respond soon.

Ryan

Dan Trabue said...

If I am misunderstanding your notion that "repentance is granted," then please, enlighten me and explain it more fully. What does that look like? Do we make the decision to repent or does God make it for us? How do you think it works and based on what?

As to this...

I find no biblical reason to classify it as hyperbole. The only reason I can imagine to say it is hyperbole is "That's not my experience" ... the concept of interpreting Scripture from my experience

Well, there IS also scripture to base that position upon. God delights in our obedience (ie, our good acts).

"Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord?"

Also, if we have observable and obvious real world experience that disagrees with OUR INTERPRETATION of scripture, there is nothing wrong with admitting that OUR INTERPRETATION - being human and potentially wrong - could well be wrong.

There is nothing wrong with realizing that some scripture is hyperbole, IF we have reason to think it.

So, the difference seems to be that people can DO GOOD ACTS, but they aren't GOOD? Well, if that's all you're saying, I agree. We're not wholly good. But we DO have that light of God within us, we ARE created in God's image with the ability to DO good, to choose to do good, yes?

Dan Trabue said...

Stan said...

I agree with Ryan (and Paul) that there is none good, no, not one.

I guess maybe we've missed something. My quote that you say you disagree with was that the "unsaved CAN do choose to do good acts..."

Can the unsaved choose to do good or bad (and we therefore agree) or can't they?

I was pretty sure you agreed with me when you said...

People do indeed do "nice things", "kind deeds". My point is that this is a human measure by human standards. The "good" of which I speak is a Divine Standard.

We SEEM to both agree that no one is perfect, no one is good in the sense that God is perfectly righteous, BUT we CAN do good acts, even the lost. Am I misunderstanding your position?

Also about your "divine standard," do you think there is some place in the Bible where God actually defines "Good," and gives a standard against which we can measure good and recognize that we literally never do a good act? If so, what passages are you thinking of?

Bubba said...

Stan, I certainly understand the analogy to Lazarus, and the position that a response in faith to God's grace is possible only after regeneration. I think the position is reasonable, but I'm still studying to figure out whether Scripture requires it.


About good deeds, Paul isn't the only one who taught that no one is good: Christ Himself did so, in response to the rich young ruler's calling him "good teacher:" His response was that there is no one good but God, raising the possibility that, if Jesus is good, it is because He is God.

(Dan has repeatedly invoked this particular occurrence to suggest that Christ taught justification by works, but Dan does this by stopping short of studying the entire account. There is no one good but God, and the twelve understood that Christ's teaching implied that no one could be saved; Christ taught that what is impossible for man is possible for God -- that is, salvation is by God's grace and not my man's obedience to any law.)

There is no one good but God: does this mean that none of us are capable of even a single truly good act, or does this merely mean that none of us are capable of a consistent life of good deeds?

It's definitely true that none of us are consistently good, which is why we all stand condemned, but I'm not sure the Bible is as clear that we are all incapable of even a single good act -- except, we're taught that you can't get figs from thistles, and the Bible is quite clear of the corruption and the depravity of the human heart.

But, either way, obersvation of other people's behavior doesn't answer whether people are capable of good deeds.

Dan writes, "Real people in the real world do good stuff all the time."

But it's impossible for him to determine this about other people because, biblically, motive is very important to whether an act is good.

"Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven. So whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward." - Mt 6:1-2, emphasis mine

As much as Dan emphasizes, not Christ's ethical teachings in general, but only those that touch on wealth, he would probably argue that giving alms is a good thing.

But in the Sermon on the Mount, which Dan claims to revere quite highly, Jesus made clear that motive matters: those who gave alms "in order to be seen" and subsequently praised by others have no reward from our heavenly Father.

Can one determine pure motives on the part of another person by mere observation? I don't think so.

Dan's suggestion here is like his claim from another thread last week, that free will can be observed.

"I define 'free will' as the ability to choose right from wrong. We have this ability. We can see it in practice on any given day at any point in our lives or in the lives of those around us. I call my daughter downstairs to help take out the garbage. She can ignore me or do as I ask. There have been times where she exercised her free will to ignore her father's direction. There have been other times where she's done as I have asked."

But Dan cannot possibly know, with any real sort of certainty, that his daughter's inconsistent behavior is the result of the exercise of free will: that requires "inside information" about her thoughts, information that cannot be deduced from observing external behavior.

It's bad enough to reinterpret the clear meaning of Scripture to fit one's observations of the "real world," but here Dan's observations are built on clear presumptions that the evidence cannot support.

Dan Trabue said...

I'm just sorta noticing this, although it should come as no surprise, that Calvinists and Anabaptists have a long history of disagreement. A few sources...

reformed.org

Calvin on Anabaptists

on anabaptism

Which has this quote...

"Doubly ironic is that many of the Reformers who enjoyed their newly gained freedom from the Roman Catholic Church, likewise chose to be the new Afflicters. The wanton slaughter of Anabaptists was severe, vitriolic, and offered as entertainment in some locations..."

I guess our differences are perhaps not that different than anabaptists and calvinists have been having forever, or at least it sounds that way.

The more things change, the more they stay the same? At least you're not advocating my death, so for that, I am grateful... Progress HAS been made!

Dan Trabue said...

Bubba seems more interested in talking about Dan than the topic. You say...

here Dan's observations are built on clear presumptions that the evidence cannot support.

I will note that one of my examples has been my own self. I have noted that before I was saved, when I was a youngster, I did some good things purely out of love for my mom or out of a desire to do a good thing. Before I was saved, I gave my mom hugs, I visited the sick, I donated to missionary work, etc, for no other reason than I thought it was the right thing to do or out of love.

And I think we can safely see that in the actions of others. Not with 100% certainty, but with some reasonable certainty.

If I see a "pagan" throw himself on a grenade to save his friends, I can be fairly sure that he did not do so for reward (knowing he'd be dead) or to impress someone ("she'll REALLLY like me if I let myself get blown up!"), etc. I have no doubt that non-Christian people do acts of good for pure motives all the time.

I can't say for certain, since I can't know their hearts and desires, but I can say so reasonably, if for no other reason than I had done so when I was not saved and because there is no other apparent motive.

The evidence is there. People DO do good things all the time. Can anyone reasonably dispute such an obvious reality? If so, present evidence. I'd suggest it's not there.

Dan Trabue said...

So, Bubba, can you tell me with some clarity what YOUR position is? Do you believe

1. we DON'T have free will?
2. We have "Limited Free will"?
3. and, if we have "limited free will," under what circumstances are you or anyone else not able to make their own decisions?
4. Are you saying that God forces us to do things? To accept or reject God's grace?
5. Or can we do that of our own free will?

Stan said...

Bubba: "the position that a response in faith to God's grace is possible only after regeneration. I think the position is reasonable, but I'm still studying to figure out whether Scripture requires it."

The statement is not explicit in Scripture (except in one instance -- 1 John 5:1). It is a logical requirement based on all that Scripture says about the human condition (e.g., Gen 8:21; John 6:63; Rom 3:10-12; 8:5-8; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1-3). (One of the fascinating passages is in John 6. Some of His disciples (other than the 12) no longer believed because Jesus was saying things like "Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him." Jesus knew it. "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him.) And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.' After this many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him" (John 6:64-66). In other words, in answer to the question, "Why is it that some do not believe?" Jesus replied, "It hasn't been granted to them by the Father.") Inclined only to sin, unable to come, incapable of good, hostile to God, unable to understand, dead in sin, unable to believe ... these (and more) are biblical descriptions of the condition of Natural Man. In order for this person to respond in faith and repentance, they need these issues overturned first. Ergo, regeneration must precede faith. (Note, by the way, that "precede" is a logical precedence, not a temporal precedence. That is, I have every reason to believe that the very moment one is regenerated is the very moment one comes in faith. Thus, it would appear to that person that they did it themselves without being aware that it was enabled in them by God.)

Good points on "good deeds" that Jesus shoots down (such as alms given for the wrong reason), and on the problem of determining what Scripture means based on my observations of the world. Jer 17:9 concurs.

Stan said...

Dan Trabue: "Can the unsaved choose to do good or bad (and we therefore agree) or can't they?"

I don't know how many ways I can say this. I'll try again. No, no, no, no ... the unsaved person cannot choose to do good by God's standard. They can choose to do good by human standards, but human standards are not God's standards and the only standard that matters in this equation is God's.

Dan Trabue: "Also about your 'divine standard,' do you think there is some place in the Bible where God actually defines 'Good'"

Again, I'll lay it out there again, but I've done so at least two times in the last two days. The first divine standard of good is "no other gods". The first standard of unregenerate humans is "Me first" (or "I will be like the Most High"). The primary command to humans is "Love the Lord your God with all your hearts ..." and the primary condition of humans is "hostile to God". In what part of this am I being unclear because I want to clearly answer your questions and I don't seem to be getting any of this across?

Dan Trabue: "If I am misunderstanding your notion that 'repentance is granted,' then please, enlighten me and explain it more fully. What does that look like? Do we make the decision to repent or does God make it for us?"

No "if" -- you have misunderstood. You continue to assume an either/or condition. Either we repent or God repents for us. I am saying that repentance is granted. (Rather, the Bible is saying it.) Now, consider a soldier. (I know, distasteful for you, and I'm sorry about that, but it's the first example that comes to mind.) This soldier is trained to shoot. He is trained to kill the enemy. Only ... he is not given a gun. So ... he can't shoot the enemy. It's an impossibility. Then the sargeant comes on the scene and hands him a weapon and the soldier goes out and shoots the enemy. Did the sargeant shoot the enemy for him? No, he granted the ability by handing him the weapon. Despite all that was present (training, intelligence, etc.), the soldier simply couldn't do that job until it was granted to him to do it ... at which point he carried it out, not the one who did the granting.

Dan Trabue: "Well, there IS also scripture to base that position upon. God delights in our obedience (ie, our good acts)."

Apparently you're reading me to say something that I don't believe. Clearly we are obligated to work out our salvation (partly by doing good works). I have never suggested that regenerate humans are incapable of choosing to do good. Of course, according to the verse that follows the one I just referenced our ability and will to do those good works are a product of God working in us. I have been arguing all along that the unregenerate -- Natural Man -- is incapable of doing good.

Note, also, the problem of logic. To say, "God delights in our obedience" does not demand that "our obedience" exists. I could say, "I love to fly to the moon", but it doesn't mean I can. That's just a logical problem. I concur that people who have the Spirit within are enabled by God to do good works ... truly good works.

Dan Trabue said...

They can choose to do good by human standards, but human standards are not God's standards and the only standard that matters in this equation is God's.

So, if a saved person helps someone across the street...

1. They have chosen to do so, and
2. It is a "Good" deed.

If an unsaved person helps someone across the street...

1. They DID choose to do it, BUT
2. It's not really a good act by God's standards

Is that what you're saying?

I think part of my problem with your position is it seems to be defining good in some way other than standard English. You appear to have a theological definition of "good" that you have not shared specifically with us (not that I've noticed).

You HAVE stated that "no one is good, no not one," but that's not a definition of "good," or really a standard.

So, to help me understand your understanding of "good" perhaps you could define what you mean by that? And I'll return to my oft-repeated and ignored question: IF I am an unsaved child who loves my mom and gives her a big hug out of love along with a present that I created on my own, was the choice to do so a "Good" act?

By standard English understanding of the term, clearly, yes, that IS a very good act. I'll go further and say that by biblical terms, it is a GODLY act (even though it is committed by one who is not "saved") - John tells us that whoever commits acts of love is OF God ("Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.), so I think clearly that acts of love such as a child might regularly do for his parent IS a good (by definition) and Godly (according to the Bible) act.

What say ye?

Dan Trabue said...

The primary command to humans is "Love the Lord your God with all your hearts ..." and the primary condition of humans is "hostile to God". In what part of this am I being unclear because I want to clearly answer your questions and I don't seem to be getting any of this across?

In where you get your ideas from and in the vagueness of what you're expressing (not blaming you, I'm sure it must be something in me that's not getting what you're saying, but you SEEM TO ME to be using terms and words with non-standard English definitions and so, I am getting lost - which is why I've asked for definitions).

So, you state, and the primary condition of humans is "hostile to God" and I wonder, "Says who?" What makes you think this?

As a former child and as a parent and as someone who has worked with children for most of my adult life in Sunday Schools and VBSes and camps, etc, it has been my experience that children are not at all hostile to God. They seem to innately have a good sense of God. In fact, it has been my experience that many if not most people, children or grown up, share this innate sense that there is a God and that God IS love.

The Bible tells us that God's law is written on our hearts and that God has revealed God's Self through all of creation.

Now, we certainly DO have a sinful nature - all of us do - this bent towards sin, this selfish desire to have our way. The Bible speaks of this and real world experience supports this notion.

I think the problem is in that old Calvinist saw about utter depravity of humanity. Calvinists look around and see sin and the worse depravity everywhere and in every one, even toddlers and babes.

The Bible (and, again, real world observation) has a more balanced view. We are sinful, we DO sin, but we are also created in God's image, with that of God in us. We DO commit good acts at times, delighting God. We ARE expected to do the good and shun the bad, and, in fact, we often do so. Not always, but sometimes.

This "utter depravity" that Calvin and his followers find is an extrabiblical notion that can't be reached reasonably in reading the Bible. A sinful nature? Yes. "Utter and total depravity," unable to choose to do something good? Not biblical, not logical, and real world observation does not support it.

Dan Trabue said...

As to the notion that the lost can't do good, Jesus disagrees, it seems, when he tells us plainly...

For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?

And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?


So, again, perhaps you could explain your definition of Good?

Dan Trabue said...

A few other thoughts...

The first divine standard of good is "no other gods". The first standard of unregenerate humans is "Me first"

So, are you suggesting that the Ten commandments ARE God's way of defining Good or of setting up standards for what Good is? I suppose a case might be made for that.

And certainly, humans have that selfish, "me first" attitude at times. But, at the exact same time, we have a very loving, giving attitude at times. What mother - saved or unsaved - isn't loving towards her children? In fact, I know very few mothers who don't tend to be loving towards most children, even those who aren't their own.

What makes you think the unsaved don't have enough of the image of God within them and the law of God written upon their hearts that they would not recognize right from wrong and would not, in fact, choose to do the right sometimes? As noted, we can see it in practice in the real world and I don't find anything in the Bible to suggest this utter depravity.

You also state...

Either we repent or God repents for us. I am saying that repentance is granted...

No, he granted the ability by handing him the weapon. Despite all that was present (training, intelligence, etc.), the soldier simply couldn't do that job until it was granted to him to do it ... at which point he carried it out, not the one who did the granting.


Okay, I don't know that we disagree then. God does the calling and the soldier does the repenting. I don't really see a biblical reason to talk about "granting" forgiveness, I think the better imagery is that of calling. God wishes for no one to perish and for all to be saved, so God calls us all and we can then either answer the call or not.

But then, I don't believe you would agree with that, would you? I believe it is your opinion that once God calls, or "grants" someone the chance to be saved, then that person WILL accept that salvation. It's not a matter of yes or no, they have to - is that your position? Or they have the choice but they WON'T turn it down? "Irresistible grace," as Calvin puts it?

If so, I disagree, but perhaps not so much as if you were saying outright that God forces it.

But then, I suspect the largest point of disagreement would be that I don't think you think God "grants" everyone the chance to be saved. Isn't it the Calvinist position that God doesn't want anyone to be lost, BUT at the same time, God does not "grant" everyone the chance to get saved so not everyone even gets the chance?

I think my earlier thinking was right: We have a classic Calvinist/Anabaptist divide in our thinking.

Stan said...

Dan Trabue: "We have a classic Calvinist/Anabaptist divide in our thinking."

No, Dan. We have the classic "I read the Bible one way and you read it another" divide in our thinking.

Until we find some common ground upon which to discuss these things, how can we possible discuss these things?

Dan Trabue said...

Like any other two human beings? The best we can? Nobody reads anything exactly the same way.

Are you suggesting that you can't speak to ANY anabaptists, simply because we don't read it in such a way that we find justification for Calvin's TULIP theories?

What more common ground do we need? We come from similar backgrounds, we both love the Bible, we both claim to be saved by God's grace, we both take the Bible seriously, neither of us take the Bible wholly literally, we both acknowledge that some parts are allegory, parable, metaphor and hyperbole, along with some literal truths.

We both believe that Jesus is the risen son of God and that humans are sinners in need of a savior. We both desire to make Jesus lord of our lives and to seek God's will.

We both believe that God created the heavens and the earth and that the Bible is God's revelation to us about God. We both believe that the Holy Spirit works in our hearts and lives to reveal God to us. We both believe that God's Law is written upon our hearts and that we ought to use our God-given intellect to try to discern God's will.

We have a TREMENDOUS amount of common ground. How much common ground do two people need with each other before they're able to discuss things?

I have discussed things just fine with people with whom I have a WHOLE lot less in common than I do with you. You just talk and listen.

I don't think it's that hard (hard, perhaps, but not THAT hard...)