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Saturday, August 31, 2013

Standing on Principle

They tell us that when someone is, say, addicted to alcohol, the people around them need to avoid enabling their behavior. So, don't do things like invite them to a party where drinking will be going on or offer them a beer or ... well, you get the idea. You may not be responsible for changing their behavior, but you shouldn't be enabling them to do bad things. So a husband who beats his wife tells a friend that he did it, and the friend keeps quiet about it because, after all, they're friends, right? That's enabling the husband to repeat the behavior. Not good.

There have been multiple stories in the news over the past few years centering on "gay rights" and Christian business owners. A bed and breakfast owner refused to rent a room to a homosexual couple (not because they were homosexual, but because the owner didn't rent the room to any unmarried couples), was sued, and lost. A baker refused to make a wedding cake for a homosexual "marriage" ceremony and was sued and lost. And then there was the photographer and the florist and ... well, you get the idea. They all said, "We are not free to provide our services for that particular behavior because that particular behavior violates our consciences", and they all paid the consequences. And conservative Christians stand up and say, "Yeah! What about that?"

I'm not asking about the legality of such consequences here. I'm wondering about the perspective. And I want to emphasize that I'm wondering about the perspective. Are Christians obliged not to serve those who are engaging in sinful behavior?

At the outset I would hope you can see that such a question is, well, stupid. I mean, the goal of Christian mission work is to serve people who specifically do not know Christ in order to lead them to Christ. Skid row missions serve homeless and spiritually lost people in order to bring them the Gospel. It would be horribly counterproductive to say, "We want to bring them the Gospel, but we can't feed homeless people because they're lost." Indeed, Jesus Himself fed the multitudes who were sinners. So that question doesn't make sense at the very beginning.

But at what point does it become enabling? Is a florist who sells flower arrangements to someone for the purpose of having a homosexual wedding enabling them? Is a Christian waitress who serves an obese customer (and Scripture opposes gluttony) enabling that sin? I mean, clearly all Christians are called to be in the world even if we are not to be of the world. We will interact with unbelievers. How much of what we do is normal interaction which, by doing it well, reflects Christ, brings glory to the Father, and presents the Gospel to the needy, and how much enables further sin?

Take your Christian photographer. She agrees to take wedding photos for a Christian wedding. We're all pleased about that. Does she refuse to take wedding photos at a non-Christian wedding? Well, no, probably not. So where is the line? Someone comes to her and asks her to take photos at their event. What event? "Well, we're having an orgy and want photos taken." Well, of course, we'd all say, "No, she shouldn't do that." So there is a line. But is a non-Christian wedding more godly than a homosexual wedding? Perhaps, since one is a genuine marriage and the other is not. Or is it? What if she was asked to document the homosexual event for the local newspaper, not as the wedding photographer?

Perhaps it is the timing of the issue? We know that immoral marriages take place all the time. A man leaves his wife for another woman and marries her. A Christian woman marries a non-Christian man. These things happen all the time. But these things happen all the time. This event, the subversion of marriage into something else, is new. Perhaps it's wrong for a Christian to participate on the basis of its newness? That is, if the wedding taking place is intended as a statement itself, perhaps providing support to that statement is the reason to deny it.

And, given that this photographer has decided that, on principle, he or she cannot provide services to this particular sin, what other sins need to be included?

And then there's the whole matter of Christian liberty. If one Christian photographer (or florist or baker or ...) excludes service to one particular sin, is it wrong for another Christian photographer to offer to do it?

And there's the whole question of whether or not what you're doing will be some sort of enabling or endorsing of sin. At a wedding -- any wedding -- who really knows who provided the floral arrangements? (And, if you did, do you think, "Wow, Mary's Floral Shop endorsed this wedding!"?) The photographer, on the other hand, is present and visible. But even then you have to wonder if the presence of the photographer constitutes endorsement or just ... business. Some would argue that the photographer is an artist and is asked to capture those "special moments", that the task of the wedding photographer is to engender in the long term a warm feeling about the event, and that would constitute endorsement. What about a t-shirt maker asked to make shirts for a Gay Pride parade? That might be a horse of a different color.

I don't think the issue is clear. I think that there are some times when the performance of a service can be construed as an endorsement or enabling of a sinful behavior, but it seems as if the only endorsement people are trying to avoid these days is the "gay wedding". There's no problem in going to your neighborhood barbecue celebrating your neighbors' moving in together. And would a Christian baker refuse to make a "divorce cake"? So is this not an issue of conscience regarding enabling and endorsing sin and only an issue of disagreement with homosexual behaviors? Perhaps we need to rethink this.
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P.S. Please note that all of this has been written primarily in question form, not statement. The point is not "Those who discriminate because of conscience are wrong" or "We need to discriminate more because of conscience." I'm simply asking for more clarity.

15 comments:

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I play my bagpipes for weddings. My criteria is that it has to be a wedding of a man and a woman or else it doesn't fit the definition of a wedding - the union is not a marriage.

I have turned down a request for an "Irish hand fasting" ceremony - they couldn't call it a wedding because polygamy is illegal. But it is considered a marriage nevertheless. Those who requested my service said they knew it might be against my beliefs and that was okay. They didn't threaten me with lawsuits or call me a bigot, etc. I gave them a name of an unbelieving piper who would probably have no problem and they thanked me and that was end of story. If it had been to "homosexual" people there would have been hell to pay.

Here's the issue; if by my being there gives tacit approval to what they are doing, then I cannot perform. Which is why I have turned down jobs for Freemasons, as well as a job for promoting a Mormon event.

I think by making a flower arrangement or cake, etc, specifically to celebrate an immoral event, you are giving tacit approval. If you sell whatever is on hand at the store for anyone to buy, then you are not giving tacit approval.

That photographer had a policy of not photographing anything immoral, such as nudity, or suggestive stuff, and no one found that discriminatory even though all that is legal. Yet the mere fact that tacit approval was not given for a "wedding" all hell broke loose. There is certainly discrimination - by those promoting the homosexual agenda.

Stan said...

The principle I see you using here is "providing services (whatever they are) is giving tacit approval" (which seems like a common perspective). Would you, then, not provide your bagpipes for a Christian man marrying a non-Christian woman (clearly in opposition to Scripture)? Should a Christian waitress refuse to serve wine to an alcoholic? Should a Christian baker not provide a cake for a divorce party? Based on your principle, I would guess that in all these cases principled believers would need to refuse service to these situations, regardless of the service provided.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Stan,
It has nothing to do with whether the wedding is Christian. It has to do with wether it meets the definition of marriage. A believer and an unbeliever is a marriage, and even God sees it that way. Two pagans marrying is a marriage in God's eyes.

It isn't the sin that is the problem, it's the very institution of marriage.

There is no such thing as an alcoholic. That is a construct by the guy who invented AA so as to take responsibility for the behavior away from the drunk. There are plenty of places which make it a practice to not serve more alcohol to one who is drunk already. So how would anyone know that the person they are serving intends to get drunk anyway. You decried the idea of those who practice homosexual behavior being defined by that behavior, yet you are defining a drunk by his behavior by saying he is an "alcoholic" - one who was born that way, or can't help himself, etc.

As for divorce, a particular divorce may or may not be biblical. I believe the Bible is quite clear that there are two times divorce is permitted - adultery and abandonment (and historically Jews even understood abuse to be abandonment of the vows). I personally wouldn't play for a divorce party because even a valid divorce is not to be cheered.

But, again, it isn't a matter of biblical or Christian morality. Marriage transcends Christian beliefs, in that God created marriage before there was any religion. Marriage has a fundamental definition and anything else is a corruption and causes the collapse of society.

Every person can have their own principles, as long as they don't claim the Bible demands it. Since marriage not only has a historical cultural definition as well as a Biblical definition, there should be no dispute as to whether that should be a principle held to.

If someone demands I play for an orgy, should I be required to do so?

I personally don't think the law should require anyone to provide service for something they have personal beliefs against. People can get what they want elsewhere.

Stan said...

Keep in mind, Glenn, that this was a "question" post and I'm asking questions, not intending an argument or disagreement. I wasn't challenging your position, but asking for clarification.

There are people who are inclined to particular sins. Some are sins of a homosexual nature. Some are sins of drunkenness. There is, of course, a long list of possibilities. Passing off as "marriage" that which isn't is one. A Christian who actually marries an unbeliever is another. Drinking too much is another. Those were the three examples I offered and asked, based on the principle that providing anything for a sinful activity would be providing tacit approval.

If I understand you correctly now, you are saying that this only applies to the false "homosexual marriage" concept. Providing goods or services for use in other sinful activities is not necessarily tacit approval. It would appear, then, that you're arguing that we shouldn't be required to supply goods or services to make-believe things. Which isn't the same thing as withholding services for, using your example, an orgy, because that would be a violation of moral principle.

(Oh, and, me personally, I am generally in favor of people who provide goods and services being allowed to refuse such goods and services whenever they want. But, hey, that's just me -- not a matter of biblical principle.)

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I understand it was a question post, but I was trying to show what makes a difference in various activities being provided for, and why some should be exempted from mandatory provision of service.

I'm still not sure you quite understand my position, so I want to see if I can clarify just a wee bit.

Providing things for a sinful activity does not necessarily give tacit approval to said activity. I would say it would depend on the context. Providing booze to someone who is inclined to drink to much doesn't give tacit approval to the sin of drunkenness, because drinking in and of itself isn't a sin. We really can base our providing thing on what someone MIGHT use it for sinfully.

Marriage, on the other hand, is up front and not hidden. That's why if it isn't a real marriage, I shouldn't have to provide for it. If someone tells me they want to murder someone, I should not have to sell them the tool which will allow them to do so. And this type of thing would be true regardless of whether or not one is a Christian.

Now, a Christian should be able to refuse service which violates their beliefs, such as providing abortion drugs, providing for occult activities, providing services which support the cultic activities, etc.

Does that make sense?

I agree 100% with your ending parenthetical statement.

Stan said...

For clarification sake, what would you counsel Christian parents whose Christian daughter (for instance) is planning to marry a non-Christian man. It will be a marriage (male and female). It will be sin. Should they participate and provide, or should they abstain on principle?

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I would counsel to not marry. I would counsel to not even date a non-Christian.

But it is a marriage, and if you don't attend the wedding it would be a division of the family which may never be repaired. One could continue to work with them to bring the gospel to the husband.

Even if it is an unbeliever, God still recognizes it as a marriage.

Stan said...

Interesting. Okay, so the other is not marriage and the division between the family and their family member indulging in homosexual behavior is not particularly relevant in this case.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

If I understand correctly what you just said, then that is correct. Same sex fake marriage is not marriage. If I was a family member I would no more attend and give tacit approval than I would to an occult ritual or a drug buy, or even an orgy.

Marshal Art said...

Since we're dealing with clarifications here, could you provide me with the general spot where I could find marriage to a non-Christian described as sinful? I am aware of the verse speaking against "yoking" one's self with an unbeliever, and there ain't no more of a yoking than by marriage, but I just can't think of where that would be. Not denying it's there, I just can't think of where.

Anyhow, I also agree with your parenthetic comment.

For the point of the post, selling to sinners is different than selling to sinners so as to provide a product or service that enables their sin. In the case of the florist, it is my understanding that at least one of the homosexuals whose marriage she would not supply with flowers, was indeed a customer of hers. She had sold him flowers before. I doubt he mentioned his intention was to woo his boyfriend, or she might have refused him then. Point being, he made his intentions known to her and she then refused as a result.

The question is what do we do when we know a customer is patronizing our business for the purpose of acquiring what he needs to sin? I would refuse. Or at least I'd like to think I would.

Here's another angle: A local convenience store sells (as do so many others), pornographic magazines, rolling papers and small pipes (great for one hitters---not so much for enjoying tobacco) and rolling papers. In speaking with the one of the owners (a very pleasant and friendly Indian guy---did I say it was a convenience store?), he talked about how NOT selling these products would hurt his income. Not like it would put him out of business, but, he sells enough to compel him to stock these items (did you know Snoop Dog/Lion has his own brand of rolling papers?) If it were me, I know that I wouldn't be selling Playboys and Penthouses. No question. But those pipes and papers ARE still used for tobacco. I know a forklift operator at a warehouse I frequent on the job who rolls his own cigs because its cheaper.

Anyway, here's a case where one product is a no-brainer for me, and the other is questionable. I can't know if the customer is buying papers to roll weed or tobacco. And even if tobacco is harmful to your health, not everyone smokes to an extent that puts them at great risk. And even if smoking is harmful, so are other products sold often if abused or sometimes, even if not abused.

But I'm not done. What about on the flip side? What about customers? It was alluded to above. Do we patronize businesses that enable sinners? From recording a lesbian wedding to selling Playboy, as we live in this fallen world, it is difficult not to step in it now and then. I guess we each draw our own lines and try to be faithful to where they are the best we can. So nice to have Jesus, ain't it?

Stan said...

Just to point out, Glenn, that we're mixing positions here. After your first comment I asked about serving alcohol to someone prone to drink too much alcohol or attending a wedding of a Christian and a non-Christian. You indicated that the "same-sex marriage" was non-existent and, therefore, not something in which you could participate (putting that particular principle on a different plane than "sin"). But here you're listing "occult ritual", "drug buy", and "orgy" along with "same-sex marriage". Those are clearly moral issues while the latter is clearly a problem of definition. So I'm confused. Further, your reason for going to the (fictional) wedding of your Christian daughter to her non-Christian fiance was to prevent a rift, but it would appear that preventing a rift in the case of a fake marriage is not a problem. So I'm not really clear here.

Stan said...

Marshall Art,

Sure. "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?" (2 Cor 6:14-15).

I knew (of) a Christian who was a beer company delivery guy. He never knew his consumers -- delivered to sellers. Would that be a problem I wonder? (And if we're going to go with "products that are harmful to your health" like a lot people do with tobacco, we're wading into a lot of problems. No more Twinkies, processed foods, foods with sugar or salt ... it gets to be really, really odd and not very biblical.)

As for patronizing those who enable sinners, we are to be in the world but not of the world. Paul said, "I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people -- not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world" (1 Cor 5:9-10). Associating with sinners is the only possible condition as long as we live in this world. And I have a real problem trying to force unbelievers into "Christian morality" with my dollars. So in my view it is not biblical, practical, or effective to concern myself with that to any great extent.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Stan,

Saying that it is a fictional wedding is only one piece of the pie. It is a totally immoral and disgusting thing to suggest that same-sex fake marriage is on a par with real marriage. No one should have to participate in any manner by providing services of any sort if they don't want to do so.

The other issues were examples of things which are sinful and therefore a Christian should not be forced to participate.

I also find no place where it is a sin to marry a non-believer. Paul said don't do it, but there is no commandment from God to say it is a sin. It is still a marriage in God's eyes. If you think that is on the same plane as same-sex fake marriage or an orgy, then I guess I don't know how to communicate with you.

Stan said...

"I also find no place where it is a sin to marry a non-believer. Paul said don't do it, but there is no commandment from God to say it is a sin."

Sorry. My mistake. When I read Scripture (as "God-breathed") and see a command, I don't differentiate between "God said" and "Paul said". So when I read, "What partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?", I assume it means, "None, so don't do it." My mistake would be in assuming that anyone else would think so.

But, clearly, I'm irritating you with my questions and clarifications and clearly we're just getting lost in the examples. I'm actually no nearer an answer to the questions from my post than when we started.

(The original question: At what point is it wrong to provide goods and/or services to sinners or sinful events? We've ended up trying to figure out the difference between "sinful" or "real" or even "is it sin?" But thanks for trying.)

Marshal Art said...

It is a tough question, as are so many when trying to navigate through a Godless world. Great to have Jesus, though, isn't it?