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Monday, December 27, 2010

Useless Creeds

There are those who would argue "No creed but Christ", a self-refuting statement because it is a creed. There are those who would argue that creeds are helpful in laying out basic biblical doctrine. There are those who would argue that creeds are necessary in pinning down what people do and don't believe. "Do you agree with the Westminster Confession of Faith? Okay, then, you're a Calvinist." Or something like that. Me? I see real value in creeds. They do indeed break down complex biblical doctrine and set it in helpful formats to give clear statements. I think that creeds are biblical -- you can, in fact, find them in Scripture. I am absolutely certain that doctrine itself is biblically mandated, and creeds are simply a support of biblical doctrine. So, to me, creeds are a good thing.

And then I read something like this. Apparently two professors at Calvin College (located in Grand Rapids, MI, it touts itself as "Distinctively Christian, academically excellent, always reforming") have decided that "Adam and Eve are strictly literary figures -- characters in a divinely inspired story about the imagined past that intends to teach primarily theological, not historical, truths about God, creation, and humanity." "Strictly literary figures", you know, like Sherlock Holmes, Gandalf, or Fagin. Certainly not historical characters. And, of course, since they were figurative -- not literal -- neither is the theology they spawn. "They propose that Adam and Eve are purely symbolic literary figures, that there was no historical fall into sin, and that the doctrines of original sin, Christ’s atonement, election and eternal punishment need major revision." They recognize, of course, that Paul regarded Adam as an actual, historical person, but, well, he was just wrong. We know better now. Original sin, they say, is simply a product of evolution. Evolution has predisposed us to selfishness and, thus, to sin. Strike that whole "fall of Adam" thing. And since there was no actual "fall", the whole "atonement" concept is out. One writes, "These intuitions about grace have very important implications for Christian thinking on the matter of eternal damnation, which is very hard to integrate well into theology as integrated with evolutionary science, and is also very difficult, if not impossible, to sustain within successful Christian theodicy." Throw out "eternal damnation" and embrace universalism. And, of course, that whole concept of biblical inerrancy has got to go. That's a given.

That there are those who would stray like this is no news at all. Scripture itself promised it. That it would come from the world of academia is equally not surprising. It has been thus for a long time. What disturbs me is neither the heresy nor the source, but the environment. Calvin College is a self-professed Christian college. Further, it is a Calvinist college. For instance, Rule #1 of their Faculty Membership Requirements says this:
Calvin College faculty members are required to subscribe to three historic Reformed forms of unity -- The Belgic Confession, The Heidelberg Catechism, and the Canons of Dort -- and pledge to teach, speak, and write in harmony with the confessions.
Good creeds, all. But these creeds mandate a historical view of Adam and Eve and the Fall. That is, it is not possible to both "subscribe to three historic Reformed forms of unity" and deny them at the same time. So, in this environment -- Calvin College which requires faculty to subscribe to specific creeds -- we have two outspoken professors denying the creeds.

At this point, creeds become useless. Like recent cases of pastors of Christian churches who are atheists or the ongoing cases of churches whose denomination upholds traditional creeds but whose pastors deny fundamental truths like, oh, I don't know, the historicity of Christ or the fact of the Resurrection and the like, we have a good thing (the creeds) made useless. There are no consequences. There is no accountability. There is, in fact, precious little reasoning. "Yes, yes, I can completely subscribe to these creeds while denying them entirely." Yeah, that works -- NOT.

Creeds are good things. The fact that we don't care at all is a bad thing. I suppose, however, that the fact that we too often don't much care if the pastors of our churches are believers or the professors of our seminaries and Christian colleges actually subscribe to the beliefs we are expecting is a really bad thing. The failure of the college is one thing, but the failure of the church to provide the discipline mandated by Scripture is a shame. The purpose of such discipline is love. The failure is one of love. That's a very bad thing.

26 comments:

Dan Trabue said...

From where I sit (and I'm of the tribe that holds the creed, "no creed but Christ"), creeds are useful starting points to begin discussions. They are not the be all/end all of Christian conversation on theological ideas, but simply useful starting points. A reference to give an idea of where one person is roughly (sometimes very roughly) starting from.

We are not given a "correct" definition of "atonement" in the Bible, it is an idea that Christians use to discuss our salvation by grace. God has not staked out a position on how we are to RIGHTLY UNDERSTAND ATONEMENT. We have to figure that out the best we can on our own.

We are not told, "When John says, 'in the beginning was the Word,' that this does not mean God was literally THE WORD - it's a metaphor, BUT when Genesis says, 'in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,' that this story is meant to be taken literally, meaning 6,000 years ago, God created two actual people whose names were Adam and Eve...'" but rather, we have to sort out literary styles, ancient stories and histories and teachings and God's revelation to us the best we can on our own, by God's grace in prayer and love.

Thus, when someone begins trying to explain their notion of an infinite and awesome God using limited human words uttered from our limited finite fallible minds, I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are, like me, not perfect expositors of God and God's ways. They are attempting to state their understanding of this infinite ALL of God the best they can, as I do sometimes.

And so, I find creeds and THEORIES of atonement and theories of theologies a little helpful and sometimes amusing, sometimes frustrating way of holding these sorts of discussions, but to me, that's about all they can be.

As always, I'm more interested in seeing how you live and rejoicing in the grace of God in a brother/sister's life than I am in hearing them espouse their human theories of an infinite and everlasting God.

Sound fair and reasonable?

Dan Trabue said...

Thus, when someone begins trying to explain their notion of an infinite and awesome God using limited human words uttered from our limited finite fallible minds, I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are, like me, not perfect expositors of God and God's ways. They are attempting to state their understanding of this infinite ALL of God the best they can, as I do sometimes.

And so, I find creeds and THEORIES of atonement and theories of theologies a little helpful and sometimes amusing, sometimes frustrating way of holding these sorts of discussions, but to me, that's about all they can be.

As always, I'm more interested in seeing how you live and rejoicing in the grace of God in a brother/sister's life than I am in hearing them espouse their human theories of an infinite and everlasting God.

Sound fair and reasonable?

Dan Trabue said...

A question. Where you say...

The failure of the college is one thing, but the failure of the church to provide the discipline mandated by Scripture is a shame.

...what does that look like, to you? Obviously, since there is no ONE individual or church or congregation or denomination speaking for "the church," would it just be the individuals concerned about this college (in this case) speaking out against these two professors, as you have? Or something else?

Just curious.

Marshal Art said...

I've been chastised in the past for the out-dated notion that as a Christian I would laughingly dare to adhere to creeds, doctrine, dogma, etc. Generally, those who have done so have been somewhat "progressive". a pattern here is clear.

What is known as "the Apostle's Creed" is ripped directly from from Paul's epistles, so as you say, Scripture itself speaks of creeds and solid sets of beliefs fundamental to the faith.

But adherence to anything specific means that our actions must abide those specific decrees of the faith. This is troublesome for those who wish to mold the faith to their own liking. It means that that which they'd prefer to believe must be rejected in favor of what should be believed.

A woman who used to attend my church once remarked that she didn't like being told what to believe. Seems Scripture would be extremely problematic for her as it tells us exactly what is true and what isn't. Not sure what she meant by that exactly, but I think part of it had to do with someone seeking to guide her back toward creeds of the faith when her preferences pulled her away from them.

At some point, it seems that some do not wish to fully become born again, or prefer to do so on their own terms. If particular creeds are to be respected and followed, one must be willing to reject all that they may have been in order to hold to any creed. Rejecting creeds, doctrines and dogma opens things up nicely for those who cannot, or will not do so.

Danny Wright said...

I think you may have made one mistake Stan. The sentence:

"Distinctively Christian, academically excellent, always reforming"

should read:

"Distinctively Christian, academically excellent, in ways deforming"

Stan said...

Yes, Dan T, we're all aware that you're opposed to the concept of "orthodoxy" in the sense that it cannot be known and it isn't nearly as valuable as, say, casting out demons in the name of the Lord or ... no, wait, what I meant was "orthopraxy". So, of course you have little use for creeds. I would equally hope that you know that I do not find it "fair and reasonable" to favor doing good over thinking right.

My comments on church discipline are general. The church (lowercase "c") has failed to discipline its people for decades. In the case of these professors, it seems simple cause/effect. "You no longer adhere to the agreement you made to teach here. You cannot teach here."

Stan said...

Danny, I'd agree with your assessment -- "deforming" -- except that the description wasn't mine; it came directly from their website.

Dan Trabue said...

A few clarifications:

Stan said...

we're all aware that you're opposed to the concept of "orthodoxy" in the sense that it cannot be known

This is not my position.

1. I'm not opposed to orthodoxy.
2. It is my opinion that we don't perfectly know ALL of God's ways perfectly. I position I would hope you could agree with.
3. Thus, our "orthodoxy" will never be perfect, a position I would hope you could agree with.

Stan said...

So, of course you have little use for creeds.

This is not my position.

What I actually said was, "creeds are useful starting points to begin discussions"

Do you see the difference for "have little use for creeds," and "creeds are useful"? Your summation of my point is sort of the opposite of what I actually said. I hope you understand my position better now that I've clarified it for you.

Dan Trabue said...

Continuing the clarification...

Stan...

I would equally hope that you know that I do not find it "fair and reasonable" to favor doing good over thinking right.

Did I SAY that we ought to favor good over thinking right? Right thinking will lead to right behavior, seems to me. What I SAID was, "I'm more interested in seeing how [someone] lives... than I am in hearing them espouse their human theories of an infinite and everlasting God."

Or, as James put it: "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do... faith without works is dead."

This was and is my entire point there. So, would you also say to James, "I do not find it fair and reasonable to favor doing good over thinking right," or would you agree with James and me?

I suspect that you agree with James and me on that point.

Hope that helps you understand my actual position better. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough the first time.

Stan said...

Well, Dan T, perhaps the reason I never get your position right is because it seems to move so much.

I said you had little use for creeds. You said I was wrong. I said that you had little use for creeds because you said, "I'm of the tribe that holds the creed, 'no creed but Christ.'" I said that because you see them as starting points for discussion. They are, then, of little use for orthodoxy.

And I said you were "opposed to orthodoxy" because you said, "Give me orthopraxy over orthodoxy." I said that Paul lays out "right thinking" (the definition of "orthodoxy") before he lays out "right living" (orthopraxy), and you assured me I was mistaken.

Of course, this whole "Do you disagree with James" thing is a prime example of the problem of definitions and presuppositions. In the reference from James you've laid out the word "faith" in a vacuum. It means something different to me than it does to you. Faith, to me, has various essential components. First is the need for truth. Having firm conviction of something false may be considered "faith", but it is dead faith. "Believing in Jesus" is fine -- commendable -- but I know a pastor who is a nice guy who practices charity and much more ("orthopraxy") but believes that Jesus never rose from the dead and, in fact, probably never actually lived at all -- He's just a character in a story that teaches us the truth of how to live. "There," one might say, "just because his views aren't 'orthodox' doesn't mean he's not a Christian. Look at how he lives! Give me orthopraxy over orthodoxy." And I'd say "Faith in a false Jesus is not living faith." James was not saying, "Give me orthopraxy over orthodoxy." James was saying, "True faith, living faith, faith in the truth produces definite results." I agree with James.

Dan Trabue said...

Stan...

Dan T, perhaps the reason I never get your position right is because it seems to move so much.

Hence the need for more conversation to help you understand (and vice versa) that what it SEEMS like I'm saying to you is not always the same as what I ACTUALLY am saying. Does that not seem like a fair conclusion?

You drew your conclusion, according to you, because...

I said that you had little use for creeds because you said, "I'm of the tribe that holds the creed, 'no creed but Christ.'" I said that because you see them as starting points for discussion. They are, then, of little use for orthodoxy.

And that was where you made the leap from what I actually said to what it SEEMED like to you I had said.

Creeds ARE USEFUL (what I actually said) as starting points in conversations. It helps us understand better what someone's orthodoxy - what their views are - and are thus, helpful in understanding their views, whether or not they are orthodox as you or your faith tradition understands orthodoxy.

cont'd...

Dan Trabue said...

They are, then, ACCORDING TO DAN, HELPFUL for understanding if another believer is orthodox, as we understand orthodoxy. I just further went on to note that one's orthodoxy (as I understand it) is not the end all and be all of understanding Christianity and one's place in it. We also have THEIR BEHAVIOR, their LIVES, their orthopraxy.

It is entirely possible, it seems to me, for someone to have a different understanding of the atonement than I do (ie, orthodoxy) AND STILL be Christian. If they are leading lives of love, grace, patience, kindness, etc...; if they are loving the brotherhood of believers; if they are tending to the least of these... THESE ACTIONS also speak loudly as to the state of their Christianity.

Of the two - someone who maybe has very little understanding in the theological world and are unable to express a view of the atonement that fits with MY understanding of it AND YET, who is a lover, a gracious brother or sister, who tends to the least of these - of the two "measures of Christianity" in that case, I find their orthopraxy more convincing than their orthodoxy (or lack thereof).

WHICH IS NOT THE SAME as saying their orthodoxy doesn't matter or that I don't care about their orthodoxy (or lack thereof).

That is my actual position. I hope that makes it clearer for you.

Dan Trabue said...

I could continue pointing out the misunderstandings, if you want. For instance, you said...

And I said you were "opposed to orthodoxy" because you said, "Give me orthopraxy over orthodoxy."

You do understand, don't you, that being "opposed to orthodoxy" (YOUR claim of my position) is entirely different than, "give me orthopraxy over orthodoxy"?

and where you said...

I said that Paul lays out "right thinking" (the definition of "orthodoxy") before he lays out "right living" (orthopraxy), and you assured me I was mistaken.

I just don't think this happened (that I assured you that you were mistaken), but I'd have to look back to find out for sure.

But then, that's why we have conversation, to clarify misunderstandings and to say, "whoops, my bad," when we have misunderstood someone and gone on to misrepresent their position.

As I've said before, perhaps we'd all be better off saying, "when you say X, I have a problem because X..." and define the problem we have with their specific words and then they can be clarified or acknowledged as actual problems. It seems we run into too many misunderstandings when we attempt to "sum up" the position of others (as you can see happened right here).

Fair enough?

Stan said...

Look, here is the fundamental difference is in our views. You use phrases like "someone's orthodoxy" and "as we understand orthodoxy". I use "orthodoxy" in the sense of "right thinking", something outside of "someone's". There is orthodoxy. Some of us have it. Some of us don't. I'd even admit that none of us have it perfectly. But there is orthodoxy.

The problem of the actions of which you speak is that no less than Jesus indicated that one can appear quite "Christian" without actually being Christian. He commended the Pharisees for their righteousness ("orthopraxy") and told them they had missed the mark entirely. He told those who recognized Him as 'Lord' and said to Him, "We prophesied and cast out demons in Your name" "I never knew you." You see, without orthodoxy (right thinking) it's entirely possible to look at people committing sin and call it "loving" and say, "I am more pleased with the way they love each other (orthopraxy) than their understanding of truth (orthodoxy)" without even realizing that the "commendable condition" is actually sin.

Bubba said...

Dan, I've been trying to make it a habit not to converse with you directly, and recent exceptions haven't made me question that decision, but I would like to reiterate a question I've raised before.

You write "that one's orthodoxy (as I understand it) is not the end all and be all of understanding Christianity and one's place in it."

"It is entirely possible, it seems to me, for someone to have a different understanding of the atonement than I do (ie, orthodoxy) AND STILL be Christian. If they are leading lives of love, grace, patience, kindness, etc...; if they are loving the brotherhood of believers; if they are tending to the least of these... THESE ACTIONS also speak loudly as to the state of their Christianity."

Just how far do you take this?

As I asked before, could an atheist become a Christian without renouncing his atheism? If an atheist seems to display the fruit of the Spirit, does that make him a Christian?

Does Christian faith require belief in God, or is even that negotiable?

"God exists" is THE fundamental starting point of Christian doctrine and indeed all theism. Christian orthodoxy also requires (among other claims) the affirmation of Jesus' existence in history, His deity, His crucifixion, and His bodily resurrection, but let's keep things as simple as possible.

"God exists."

Is the denial of this statement sufficient cause to disbelieve a person's claim to be a Christian, regardless of his behavior?

Must a person affirm the existence of God to be considered a Christian?

Is there such a thing as an atheist Christian?

Marshal Art said...

But of course, once one refers to "orthodoxy" as you do, Stan, that is, "right thinking", or as I would say, "the TRUTH!", Dan will return with, "but there are different interpretations of "orthodoxy" and as we are all fallible, we just can't be sure, as if Scripture is all that mysterious.

Dan insists there can be understandings between us, but with such unwillingness to insist on ANY notion of fully revealed truth, how can there be any discussion? Indeed, there is no common ground whatsoever for such discussions since one cannot be sure when a word or verse is to be taken literally or not.

To say creeds are "useful starting points" is to diminish the very notion of what a creed is supposed to be. It is a foundational building block around which the entire theological discussion is built.

Frankly, "no creed but Christ" seems to me to be a lazy "whatever I want it to be" kinda creed that means very little. It opens things up nicely so that the tricky parts need not be wrestled with and resolved. (I'm not saying I think there are many tricky parts---when one's preferences and desires aren't plainly allowed or definitively denied, then it can be tricky to have one's cake and then also pack one's face with it.)

Dan Trabue said...

Stan...

You use phrases like "someone's orthodoxy" and "as we understand orthodoxy". I use "orthodoxy" in the sense of "right thinking"

Okay, so you appear to be using orthodox in a slightly different manner than I am. I was striving to use it in the sense it is defined...

Orthodox: conforming to established doctrine especially in religion MWebster

"Orthodox," as in ideas established by humans - "someone's orthodoxy." You are striving to use it (correct me if I'm off here) to suggest a different thing: GOD's WAY as prescribed by God.

Is that a fair summation? If so, knowing is what you mean by the term helps in our communication, I just needed to know you meant something else. Thanks.

Dan Trabue said...

So, continuing, then, you said...

Some of us have it. Some of us don't. I'd even admit that none of us have it perfectly. But there is orthodoxy.

So, some of us are (imperfectly) walking in God's Ways as designed by God and that is a good thing, is that what you're saying? If so, I agree. And some of us are NOT walking in God's ways (all of us, at some point), is that a further point? If so, I agree to that, too.

So, if I understand you aright, we agree on the concept of "orthodoxy" as you appear to be using it. There IS a Way that is right and good: God's Way (God's Ways). And sometimes, some of us get it "right" in understanding God's Ways and some of us don't. Entirely fair. And none of us perfectly understand God's Ways? Fair, too, seems to me.

Different thing than what I was speaking of, but those are reasonable thoughts on which we appear to agree.

So, I am most absolutely NOT opposed to "orthodoxy" in this new sense that you are using it in. Of course, I am not opposed to walking rightly in God's Ways.

But what I was saying was that I recognize that I don't always perfectly understand all of God's ways, nor does anyone else. I don't always perfectly describe what "God means" by "atonement," and don't think others always perfectly describe all of God's Ways in their expression of ideas.

Thus, when a fellow believer expresses theological ideas/notions in a way that I think (in my imperfection) is less than perfect, that is not as big a deal to me as if they were living a life lacking in grace and love and not improving in that regards.

THAT's what I was speaking of. Does THAT make sense/seem reasonable to you?

Dan Trabue said...

I have an idea. Since we're getting hung up on the term, "orthodoxy," let me try to express my thoughts in a different, perhaps better way.

The idea I was trying to get across had more to do with the ideas of notions that are PRIMARY and DIRECT from the Bible/God vs notions/doctrines that are secondary/tertiary/indirectly from the Bible. "Love your enemies" is a teaching straight from Jesus/the Bible. "Atonement" is a human construct to attempt to explain how we are saved not directly found in the Bible, but rather extrapolated from the Bible using human reason.

Fair enough?

So, let's say I have a beloved sister in Christ who is mentally challenged, with a low IQ and slower ability to understand things. My point was, I'm more concerned that she understands the direct teachings of Jesus/God over human theological principles. If she understands, "all have sinned," "we are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus," "love your enemies," loving care for the least of these, the notions of grace, love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control, etc, etc, then that is my central concern.

I'm much less concerned as to whether or not she understands the human constructs of Atonement, The Utter Depravity of Humanity, the Triune Nature of God, Pacifism, Just War Theory, etc.

And even for those who aren't mentally challenged, I'm still much less concerned that we reach perfect agreement on these human constructs as I am on the primary teachings of Christ.

That is what I was striving to get at by saying, "give me orthopraxy over orthodoxy."

Does that sound like a reasonable conclusion to you?

Bubba said...

Dan:

From our prior conversations, we don't disagree about the details of the Atonement, as if you hold to one theory while others hold to another. You deny the Atonement altogether, the claim that our salvation was caused by Christ's death.

THAT claim is indeed a direct teaching of the Bible and even Jesus Himself.

Jesus taught that His blood was shed for the forgiveness of sin and that He came to give His life as a ransom for many (Mt 26:28, Mk 10:45).

You write about some theoretical Christian who needs only believe that "we are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus," but the Bible teaches more than that -- that we are "justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith." (Rom 3:24-25)

We are saved by God's grace but also through Christ's death.


You say that you're more concerned about "the primary teachings of Christ," but you deny that Christ instituted the Lord's Supper, asserting instead that it's only an ancient church tradition, and you pervert His teaching regarding that supper from being a commemoration of His death -- "THIS IS MY BLOOD" -- to being a commemoration of his "living" sacrifice.

Your comment is bloated with the sort of misleading statements that have never stood up to scrutiny: generalities that don't match up to the specifics of what you actually believe.


You write:

"I'm much less concerned as to whether or not she understands the human constructs of Atonement, The Utter Depravity of Humanity, the Triune Nature of God, Pacifism, Just War Theory, etc."

Once again I must raise the question of the doctrine of theism, the claim that God exists.

I've asked the question repeatedly, and it's easy enough to answer: do you believe that a Christian can be an atheist? Is even THE EXISTENCE OF GOD one of those human constructs that pales in comparison to that subset of Christian ethics that you think is important?


As some point we're bound to hear your claim that God loves us enough to forgive us our ignorance.

That misses the important question of whether God also loves us enough to bring us out of our ignorance.

I for one deny the notion that God mumbles.

Dan Trabue said...

Bubba asked...

Just how far do you take this?

As I asked before, could an atheist become a Christian without renouncing his atheism? If an atheist seems to display the fruit of the Spirit, does that make him a Christian?


I believe I have answered this before, but will try again, if Stan does not mind.

We take it as far as is reasonable, seems to me.

I fully affirm the notion of human free will. I believe that people can choose not to follow God, if they so desire. If an atheist says he wants nothing to do with God, I don't think God is forcing an atheist to be Christian/be part of the Realm of God and I would not tell that atheist that he is really a Christian because he has displayed the fruit of God's Spirit in his life.

Perhaps you can read my final comment to Stan, re-clarifying my position. My point was that believing "right" on matters of human interpretations of God is not so important as a sign of Christianity as agreeing to/believing/following the direct teachings of God/Jesus.

I'm less concerned on your position on the human construct of Atonement, than I am about whether you believe in salvation by God's grace, in living by God's grace.

The person who holds the "right" beliefs on the Trinity, Atonement, Just War Theory, Utter Depravity of Humanity, etc, but who has nothing of God's grace in his life, nor love for his fellow humans, nor concern for the least of these, etc, is not nearly as convincing to me as the person who, while he may be "wrong" on the Trinity, atonement, etc, but who is living according to Jesus' teachings.

Stan said...

Dan T.,

Without answering for Bubba or even taking up a position here, I feel I should point out that you did not answer the question ... or, at least, the intent. Your position seems to be "Those who display 'the fruit of the Spirit' are saved", so Bubba asked "what about an atheist who displays the fruit of the Spirit?" That is, if orthopraxy demonstrates salvation, why would you not declare an atheist who is loving, caring, humble, concerned for others, etc. as a Christian?

(And, seriously, "human construct of Atonement"? It's a biblical word for a biblical concept, not a "human construct".)

Dan Trabue said...

Bubba, I'll pass on holding this conversation with you on Stan's blog. I already comment here too much, says Stan. If you'd really like to communicate with me, you know my email.

Stan...

Your position seems to be "Those who display 'the fruit of the Spirit' are saved", so Bubba asked "what about an atheist who displays the fruit of the Spirit?"

I have not said that "Those who display the fruit of the Spirit are saved." That is not my position. You may have misunderstood my comments, but I have never said that and don't believe it.

What I HAVE said is that when the Bible looks for proof of Christianity or of Godliness, it looks to the lives of the people involved.

"Tell John I'm preaching good news to the poor."

"Inasmuch as you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me. Enter into my kingdom."

The fruit of the Spirit test of Paul. The "love your brother" test of John. HOW do we know if someone is saved? We see it in their lives.

Never does it say, "What is their position on the Trinity? What is their position on the Atonement?" etc.

So, once again, my actual position is that I'm less concerned about one's position on extrabiblical human constructs like Atonement, the Trinity, JWT or the Utter Depravity of man than I am about well one understands the more direct teachings of Jesus/God as found in the Bible.

Dan Trabue said...

Stan...

And, seriously, "human construct of Atonement"? It's a biblical word for a biblical concept, not a "human construct"

It sounds a bit as if you all are put off by the words, "human construct." I mean no harm in the term. I just mean that SOME of Christianity's tenets are not direct teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is not something that Jesus says, "This is what you REALLY need to believe about God's nature." Rather, in our attempts to wrap our minds around the Godhead, we humans have looked at the Bible and extrapolated out that this is a reasonable way to consider the nature of God. And I agree with that.

But it's not a direct biblical teaching in the same sense that "love your enemies" is.

There's no harm/no foul in recognizing our less directly biblical thoughts as human constructs, human attempts to explain that which has gone unexplained directly.

Are you saying that you'd have more trouble with the Christian who could not enunciate a "correct" (according to your tradition) description of the Atonement than one who denied that we are to love our enemies, or that we are saved by Grace?

And yes, the various views of atonement ARE human constructs, extrapolated out from the Bible, not handed to us from God.

Stan said...

Dan T: "And yes, the various views of atonement ARE human constructs"

You are definitely going to have to stop saying that or at least willingly sacrifice any credibility at all.

Having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him (Rom 5:9).

To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood (Rev 1:5)

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2).

... whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith (Rom 3:25).

Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people (Heb 2:17).

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time (1 Tim 2:5-6).

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us (Gal 3:13).

The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Bubba said...

Briefly, I differentiate between "being a Christian" and "being saved" because, at minimum, pre-Christian Jews like Moses -- and even pre-Jewish men like Abraham and presumably Noah -- were saved but probably cannot be accurately as Christian, if the term specifically applies to those who affirm that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Christ/Messiah.

(Even so, it's hard for me to see how an atheist could have saving faith.)


We are told to judge people by their fruit, by their actions, but the New Testament also warns against false gospels and the heresy that Christ didn't come in the flesh.

DOCTRINE MATTERS.

Albert Mohler once highlighted the story of an Austin, Texas, atheist who joined a Presbyterian church.

What I wonder is whether Dan is willing to state the obvious that, regardless of how charitable or ethical his behavior, this atheist isn't a Christian.

If unitarians can be considered Christian, I wonder why Dan has repeatedly pointed to the explicitly trinitarian Nicene creed to prove the orthodoxy of his beliefs: and if the Trinity is negotiable, why not monotheism, another term that Jesus never explicitly uses? AND WHY NOT THEISM ITSELF?

I appreciate that Dan responded to my question, but he didn't actually answer the question: he wrote a bit about atheism, but not about whether an atheist can be a Christian.

I'm fine with not discussing things further.