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Monday, July 26, 2010

Pauline Dispensationalism

Welcome to the new Dispensationalism. Okay, it's not technically new, but it's pretty young. Original Dispensationalism was contrasted with Reformed Covenant Theology. In Covenant Theology, biblical history is viewed in terms of covenants between God and Man. These covenants were not abdicated. One simply modified the other. Dispensationalism preferred to view biblical history in terms of "dispensations" -- periods of stewardships given by God to Man. Typical dispensations would be Innocence (Adam at the start), Conscience (Mankind after the Fall), Civil Government (Mankind after the Flood), the Law (from Moses on), the Church (or Grace), the Millenial Kingdom ... you get the idea. This mild form of Dispensationalism was used by folks like Irenaeus in the 2nd century and Augustine to describe biblical time periods. Building on Dispensationalism, we got what I'll call hyper-Dispensationalism. In this view (which essentially takes the standard Dispensationalist views to the next logical step), these dispensations are all distinct. They supersede each other. This concept started in the first half of the 19th century and encouraged a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church. Constructed by the likes of John Darby, D.L. Moody, and C.I. Scofield, this view started to take precedence in the Church in America. Taking this to the next logical step, we find "ultra-Dispensationalism" coming into vogue. This one is actually around today. This is the "new Dispensationalism" that I'm talking about.

Often referred to as "Pauline Dispensationalism", this view argues that there are two gospels. The gospel that Jesus taught was the first. The gospel that Paul taught was the second. And these are not the same. The first gospel was aimed at Jews and was a "salvation by works" gospel. (That's why Jesus preached so much about "repent" and doing good works, you see.) Paul, on the other hand, refers to his gospel as "my gospel" (Rom 2:16; 16:25; 2 Tim 2:8). You see? It's different. The "evil" of the earlier gospel occurs when we try to apply what Jesus taught to the Church today. You see, that wasn't for the Church today. That was for Israel. In fact, the Gospels, Peter's works, John's works, Hebrews, Jude ... these were all for Israel. That's why, for instance, Paul writes about "we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Rom 3:28) and James writes about "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). Different gospels to different people, you see? Clears it all up, right? I mean, didn't Paul say, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15)? You need to make the proper division between the gospel to the Jews and the gospel to the Gentiles, you see.

The first thing tossed out on its ear as an evil residual from the judaizers is the Law. Everyone knows that the Law is no longer applicable. Get rid of that. I mean, it's this stupid "Law" thing that is causing all this confusion about "a man lying with a man" being sinful and all, right? No, no, that's Israel. We no longer need to consider the Law. Look, didn't Paul say, "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Gal 5:18)? Or, look here, how about when Paul wrote, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom 10:4). If Christ ends the Law, why even consider it anymore? Come on! Get with it, you ... you judaizers. (One item I read referred to the problem of Judaism's "galatianizing influence".)

There is a problem here, folks. It's not what the Bible says. For instance, when Paul says "we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law", he goes on to say, "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (Rom 3:31). Problem! And what about that "end of the law" claim from Romans 10? Well, let's look at that. It turns out that this is a problem of prooftexting -- proving a point by yanking a verse out of context. In the first few verses of Romans 10, Paul commends the Jews for their zeal for righteousness, but points out that they didn't understand the righteousness of God. You see, the way God's righteousness is achieved is through Christ. As it turns out, that was the goal of the Law. (Note that in the verse where the term "end" is used, the word is intended like when we say that "there are means and there are ends". It is a reference to a goal, not a termination.) What Romans 10:4 is saying is not that Christ terminated the Law, but that the purpose of the Law was to point out that human righteousness was impossible and Christ was necessary to obtain God's righteousness. So this whole division here is denied by Paul.

The Law still has an important purpose today. Sure, I'll agree that there are ceremonial laws in the Old Testament that may not be applicable and there are certainly sacrificial laws in the Old Testament that are still fully in force ... in that they are fully fulfilled by Christ. But the Law itself tells what God wants, from separation to morality to worship. It points us to Christ and tells people who have been given a new nature how they are to please God. It strips us of any self-confidence and drives us to our knees ... the proper place for believers. Beware of this new theology. It sounds cool. No rules. Once you're in, you're in, so don't worry about a thing. Live it up! And if those evil "judaizers" come a'knockin', just kick their heretical tails out the door. It sounds like fun ... except for the simple fact that it runs directly opposite to biblical theology including Pauline theology (like, for instance, where he says that the Gentiles were grafted into the same tree that was Israel, not replacing or separated). Don't go there, folks. It's not a safe place to be. (Remember, it was Paul who wrote "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12), not exactly a "Live it up!" command.) Like modern-day "scholars" who have only recently discovered that, well, none of the Bible is real, modern-day "theologians" who only recently discover that the Church has been wrong for 2000 years are a dangerous bunch.

110 comments:

Stan said...

I just want to point out that I wrote this all some time ago. I wrote it before Pyromaniacs did today's post on the very same subject and before I started reading the series from Pros Apologian over the last few days on the very same subject. Since they don't read my blog and I have no interaction with any of them, it can't be a case of "great minds" ... so perhaps God is trying to make a point ...?

Ye Old Coder said...

Hello,
I just wanted to let you know that if you believe that we are wrong, (we as Pauline Dispensationalist) that is perfectlly fine and you have the God given right to state your thoughts and beliefs on this topic. I do not wish to comment on your beliefs on Pauline Dispensationalism, the Mosaic Law etc. to avoid causing strife (2 Tim. 2:23)and I am sure that neither of us will change our beliefs so there really is no reason to debate or discuss. But if you believe that you are correct in your theology and that Pauline Dispensationalists are wrong, might I offer you in love a few verses for you to consider before you verbal attack someone by calling them "evil judaizers" and "heretics". God Bless.

2 Timothy 4:2
"Preach the world; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with GREAT PATIENCE and instruction"

Galatians 6:1
"Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of GENTLENESS; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted".

Ephesians 1:1-3
"Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace".



If you like, you may email me if you so desire. God Bless.

Abiding Above,
Bill Kelly

email:billkelly77@gmail.com

http://abideaboveministries.blogspot.com/

Stan said...

Bill, thanks for the comment. I'm a little confused. You stressed patience, gentleness, and unity. I re-read my own post and am having a hard time figuring out what you found offensive. Perhaps you misunderstood? When I said, "If those evil 'judaizers' come a'knockin', just kick their heretical tails out the door," I was actually quoting a friend of mine who is into Pauline Dispensationalism. She views those who believe that the Law has any use at all as "evil judaizers" and "heretics" (her words). Perhaps if you take offense at language like that (I was not saying that Pauline Dispensationalists were "evil judaizers") you might want to speak to some who hold to it. I'm not creative enough to come up with phrases like that on my own.

Ye Old Coder said...

Please forgive my oversight and misunderstanding of the words "evil judaizers" and "heretics". Please point out the perviouslly posted verses to your friend. :) God Bless.

Abiding Above,
Bill

Anonymous said...

There was quite a bit of sarcasm in the original post that I found unnecessary if not offensive. If we are all part of the Body of Christ, then we should treat each other with respect, even if we disagree. When addressing the beliefs of a certain group of believer's, it is disrespectful to sarcastically cut them down simply because you think your version of the truth is more correct or accurate. I don't believe any individual or group has interpreted the bible to 100% accuracy. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that God has not yet fully revealed 100% of biblical truth. With that in mind, all believers should approach debates on biblical interpretation with humility knowing that their own interpretation is not 100% correct and contains errors. The fact that groups of believers are viciously defending their version of the truth indicates to me a fear of seeing the error in their own thinking...just my thoughts.

By the way, I personally, have just started learning about Pauline Dispensationalism over the past few months. For me, it has helped me to understand some of the difficult seeming "contradictions" in the bible. Prior to this, I had begun to doubt the bible as the perfect Word of God. Now that I am seeing and interpreting it through the lens of Pauline Dispensationalism, it has brought me back to a belief that the bible is indeed God's Word, it is perfect, and it is complete. Ultimately, it is up to each believer individually to allow the Holy Spirit to direct their paths in terms of interpreting the bible. Do not let criticisms of one group of Christians discourage you from going off the main stream to discover something that has been hidden from your understanding. Do not let fear stop you from looking at the bible through different lenses. We have not been given a spirit of fear (Rom 8:15). We are God's children and He has promised to lead us into truth. God has amazing ways of revealing His truth and wisdom to us when we decide to trust solely in Him and not in man.

God Bless,
Mike

Stan said...

Interesting. So Pauline Dispensationalism, a brand new beast on the theology market (born in the 19th century, actually), is the thing that made you come around to believing the Bible was actually the Word of God. Interesting indeed. Now, mind you, I'm in favor of that belief, but to me if I had to side with Pauline Dispensationalism, I'd have to toss out Christianity as a viable religion. So, to each his own, I suppose.

As for the sarcasm, perhaps you didn't read the comments. Bill Kelly, a Pauline Dispensationalist, suggested that I not argue as I did, but that I should be more patient and gentle. He thought I was too harsh. I explained that the language I chose and the words I used were not my own. They were fed to me directly by a Pauline Dispensationalist I know who is hard over on that theological viewpoint and believes wholeheartedly that those who disagree (you know, those who hold traditional, historical, orthodox views) are "evil judaizers" and "heretics". (Not my words -- theirs.) Allow me to restate. They believe that the traditional, historical, orthodox view is evil and heretical and the only viable view to hold is the one that was first adopted in the mid 1800's. Prior to that all Christians were heretics. If you think, then, that I'm being too harsh, then perhaps you ought to look among those of your own view. It was their view I was addressing.

Unknown said...

Hello, Albert Bray here, I believe that Dispensationalism began with God! And that it was God that gave the Dispensation of Grace or the Dispensation of the Body Church to Paul; in fact Paul tells us just that: "If indeed, you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you" Eph 3:2 and elsewhere he says that it (the dispensation of the Grace of God ) was hid in God, until revealed to Paul himself! Colossians 1:26 Now if it was "hid in God" until revealed to Paul that means that:1. The present dispensation of the Body Church began with Paul. That means that the ones you mentioned are all Jonnie-come-latelies, Irenaeus, Darby, Moody, Scofield, ett; as well as all the theologies that were developed at the time of the reformation! Furthermore, the so-called new dispensationalists that you mentioned were Acts 2 dispensationalists meaning that they belived that the body church of today began at Pentecost! Pentecost was a Jewish Feast day and the only gentiles there were ones who had already converted to Judiaism. And further, this means that the 12 Apostles knew nothing about the New Man/ Body of Christ because it had not yet been revealed to anyone ---it was "Hid In God" until it was revealed to Paul.
2. Because the Dispensation of Grace was given to Paul it stands to reason that he would be the spokesman for this new Dispensation--and he is!!! (as Pauline Dispensationalists we don't throw any word out of the Bible because it is for our learning and example---but all of the non Pauline writings were not written to us!!
3. It also stands to reason that Paul would be God's spokesman for the new dispensation; and he was commissioned to go to the Jews first (which he did) and then to the Gentiles, which he did;
4. God divided the Bible into only 4 dispensations: A. Gentile Dispensation Gen. 1-11; B. Dispensation of Israel Gen. 11-Acts ch. 12;(implied by Col. 1:26) C. Dispensation of Grace/Body Church, Pauls Epistles
D. Dispensation of Eternity.
I think it was Cloverdale who said something like --know the context, what comes before, (why is the "therefore" therefore?), what comes after, and to whom it was written (that is a big one!) and when was it written and why was it written.
Today , Theologians seem to ignore all of that and they have a pick and choose theology which it bound to come up with erronous conclusions.
Pauline dispensationalism has really opened the Bible to me and now I can see how God's chosen nation, Israel was supposed to have been God's missionary nation to the world and how they failed and because of their failure God chose another metiod; He raised up Paul and it was Paul who prounounced judgment on the Nation Israel three time as led by the Holy Spirit; And he , Paul quoted Isaiah 6:9,10, in Acts 28:26-28. Even though the nation is in exile , Isreal has a future --it is related to God's promises and covenants --God doesn't lie and neither did Paul! I don't know why anyone would not want to follow Paul (he tells us three times to follow him as he followes the risen Christ "Brethren, join in following my example.." Phil. 3:17; "Imitate (follow) me, just as I also imitate Christ". I Cor. 11:1 ; "And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit". 1 Thess 1:6 Pauline Dispensationalist follow Paul , who got his instructions from the risen and glorified Christ of heaven---we don't worship Paul; we follow him, just as a good Jew in the time of the Exodus would follow Moses who also received instructions from God.
Hope this helps to clarify the Pauline Dispensationalist position a little--speaking the Truth in Love, Albert

Stan said...

Thanks, Albert. I actually have a pretty good understanding of Pauline Dispensationalism.

Just for helpful reference, the argument that "it started with God" is everyone's argument ... including the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses. So it doesn't help your case when you make the same statement.

You (you as an example, but the host of those who hold your view) haven't yet offered an explanation of why it was that the Holy Spirit failed so badly in getting this truth across. Why did it take 1900 years for God's people to realize that Paul was the only Apostle writing to Christians and the rest were not? What happened with God's original plan? Since it failed, He apparently had to change everything -- the "Chosen People", the means of salvation, even Jesus got it wrong in the end. Why is that?

It has always been and continues to be a serious catching point to me when people pull up a "new and improved" understanding of Scripture that no one in historical, traditional, biblical orthodoxy ever figured out and tout it as the Truth. It seems to me to be a colossal failure of the Holy Spirit sent to lead us into all truth and taking nearly 2000 years to get it done.

Unknown said...
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Stan said...

Daniel Appoh,

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to express. The texts you cited refer to a "dispensation" or, most literally, a "stewardship" God gave Paul. His stewardship--His tasking from God--is explicitly stated in the two texts. It is to tell the Gentiles about Christ. (That was, indeed, a huge mystery to the Jews, since they thought they were the only ones to get God's grace.)

So, yes, it appears quite clear and self-explanatory. This is not, however, what Pauline Dispensationalists think of when they refer to Pauline Dispensationalism. They are saying that salvation is different now--different than it ever has been. Even different from Peter, James, Jude, John, or even Jesus. Pulling that out of the texts you listed, I think you would agree, is not self-explanatory.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stan said...

I don't know if your reply got cut off or if you're going to reply later in more detail. However, I didn't suggest their stewardships--their assignments from God--were the same. I, for instance, have a stewardship to minister to the people in my area--my family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, fellow citizens, and on and on--which is different than the group of people to whom God has sent ... anyone else. God sent Paul to take the Gospel to the Gentiles. He didn't send the 12 to do that.

The difficulty comes when the suggestion is made that Paul's "good news", His Gospel, was substantively different than anyone else's. Paul claimed that His Gospel was the gospel of God (e.g., Rom 1:1) and the gospel of Christ (e.g., 2 Cor 2:12). To claim that Paul's Gospel was different, then, than the other Apostles or even Christ would violate Paul's claim. From the beginning of time the only means by which anyone has ever been saved from the wrath of God toward their sin has been through faith in Christ. Proclaimed first at the Fall (Gen 3:15) and ever after, justification was always by faith (compare Gen 15:6 to Rom 4:3) and continues so to this day. No one was ever saved by works. That is the Gospel. When the Pauline Dispensationalists claim it has changed, they do so contra Scripture.

Unknown said...

I think we need to get some baselines established. U mentioned the Gospel in ur reply. I would like to know your take on what Paul referred to as the gospel of your salvation in the following verse
Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Stan said...

If you could, before we establish a baseline of what the gospel is, I'd like you to tell me what you're arguing for. Classical Dispensationalism came about in the mid-1800s. It holds that God has dealt differently with humans over time. This "differently" is termed "Dispensations". It draws a sharp distinction between the Church and Israel and emphasizes a pre-millenial eschatological view typically with a pre-Trib Rapture. In these two distinctives, it requires that there will eventually be a new Temple complete with a sacrificial system under God's command.

Pauline Dispensationalism was an offshoot of this view. It first surfaced in the 1930's and emphasizes "saved by grace apart from works", a sort of absolute antinomianism. This form views the King James "rightly dividing the Word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15) as a requirement to actually divide the Word between the "old" gospel and the "new" gospel which is encompassed in Paul's writings. As such, only Paul's work is relevant to the Church today and offers a different gospel from the rest of Scripture ... because, of course, we're in a new Dispensation.

Is this what you're arguing for? If so, what took so long for the Church to figure it out? You said "it's self-explanatory", but apparently no one prior to the 19th and 20th centuries ever saw it. Is this your position?

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stan said...

Two quick points.

1. "The earliest Church mostly known is the Catholic Church dating back to the first century (correct me if I'm wrongly) ..."

Consider this a correction. The earliest church was the Apostolic Church. Roman Catholicism didn't really emerge until later.

2. "All of them refuse to accept the authority given to Paul by ... Jesus Christ."

I'm glad we got this clarified. It removes the need for further discussion. When I read Jesus saying, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13), I assume He accomplished that. You assume He didn't ... until 1800 years after. When I read that we are to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints" (Jude 1:3), I understand that to mean that the faith was once for all handed down to the saints and you assume it means "eventually". But most of all, the magnitude of the arrogance required to argue that every Christian from the first century to the 19th century got it wrong ... no, "refused to accept the authority given to Paul by Jesus Christ" ... astounds me. Nothing I can offer can counter that magnitude of belief. I don't want you to go away mad, but feel free to defend Pauline Dispensationalism elsewhere. You and I have nothing to talk about. I'll point to Scripture and you'll argue that I'm ignoring Scripture and it will be useless, thanks. And it is, in fact, Paul's warning that urges me away. "If we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" (Gal 1:8) Believe what you will, but I cannot classify it as anything but "another gospel" "which is really not another" (Gal 1:7). You're on your own.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stan said...

See? This is what I was talking about. Paul classified "another gospel" as anathema--damnable. And you assure me that Jesus and the Apostles were teaching "another gospel". This isn't mere disagreement. This is arrogant heresy. "Jesus taught a damnable gospel."

But, let's look (briefly) at your point. Paul went to James and Peter and John because he was concerned that he was preaching the wrong thing. They affirmed that he was preaching the right thing. That is not "another gospel". That is agreement.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stan said...

"Glaring contradictions." Not aware of a one. But, of course, understanding that the Bible is God's inspired Word, I assume God has one inspired message. So I don't find contradictions. And that's why we don't have anything further to pursue here. You see contradictions at every turn and not one of the things you listed contradicted the other as I understand them. (Interesting piece here that explains my understanding of how James and Paul do not contradict.)

I am actually stunned every time I hear one of you say that Paul didn't teach works. It is, after all, Paul who is clearest on the problem of sin (works we do in opposition to God) (Rom 1:18-3:18). It is Paul who follows "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8) with "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Eph 2:10) Paul loves to set up orthodoxy (right doctrine) in the first part of his letters followed by orthopraxy (right practice) in the last in response to the first. (See, for instance, Rom 1-11 followed by 12-16 or Eph 1-3 followed by 4-6. Eph 4:1 starts with "Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called." (Eph 4:1) You know, like James said. "Faith without works is dead.") Some of the clearest commands of how we ought to live (works) come from the pen of Paul.

But, here, let me ask this. Is it your contention that salvation has changed? That there has been (and, I suppose, will be) a time when people were saved by works? Sacrifice, baptism, whatever? (Since John the Baptist established baptism, Jesus taught it, and, in your view, Paul ejected it, it would appear that baptism worked for only an extremely short time.) There was salvation by works and then Paul came along with a new gospel and eliminated the old, including Jesus? You seem to actually be arguing that God changed. Which, by the way, is heresy.

Stan said...

(I've always been curious how a Pauline Dispensationalist handles Paul's "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12). Seems like a real problem for the "anti-works" types.)

Unknown said...



God hasn't changed but what has been changing throughout the ages (would've used dispensations) are his instructions for righteousness and salvation. In each age, faith is what he requires and we demonstrate that faith through our obedience to those instructions.

In Hebrews 11, faith is explained.
Hebrews 11
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Abel obtained witness that he was righteous because he offered a more excellent sacrifice apparently because God must have instructed them to. We see Cain rejected because he offered the wrong sacrifice. The content of the faith God gave them required a sacrifice to be offered. Failure to offer the prescribed sacrifice meant no faith. So it's not the performance of the sacrifice ( the work) in itself that mattered but doing it in obedience to God ( the faith).

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

In the same way, we see Noah became heir of the righteousness which is by faith because the faith required him to build the ark as instructed. If he hadn't his house would not be saved. By faith he believed God's warning of the flood and built the ark.

In Romans 4 16-22, Abraham's imputed righteousness is discussed. He obtained it because "he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb" but was fully persuaded that, what God had promised, he was able also to perform .i.e. make Abraham a father of many nations by giving him a son. That was the content of Abraham's faith.

Then Paul continues to describe the content of the faith of this age
Romans 4
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

So the content of faith for this age is the death and resurrection of Christ and that's not what Abel, Noah, Abraham or anyone before the Paul's commission, believed to attain salvation.

That's the mystery Christ revealed to Paul to preach "Christ's death for our sins, his burial and resurrection for the salvation of mankind" without the performance of any activity (any kind of work whether of the Law or not).

And yes, for Israel under the Law, their adherence to the priesthood, sacrifices, baptisms and commandments was their salvation.

Although Paul reveals later that no man could be saved by the mere performance of the Law, in the absence of the preaching of the cross, the content of Israel's faith was the performance the Law. Obedience to the Law indicated their faith.

James appropriately describes this as "faith without works (of the Law) is dead"

For example, there were prescribed sacrifices and offerings for each offence. If someone of faith committed any offence, he would perform the prescribed activity to atone for it. If he didn't there would no forgiveness.

This is Jesus' own words in his ministry to Israel under the Law
Matthew 6
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This is Paul according to the revelation of the mystery from the same Christ
Ephesians 1
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Still no contradiction?

The overarching requirement for salvation is faith, I'm not arguing against that. But the content and instructions of the faith from God have been different throughout the ages.

Stan said...

I don't mean to seem unkind, Daniel, but are you blind? What was it that Paul preached? Faith. What did Abel have? Faith. What did every single person mentioned in Hebrews 11 have? Faith. Nothing has changed. God has not changed His instructions for righteousness or salvation. It has always been by grace through faith in Christ. Paul said so.

No one has ever been saved by works because no one has been able to sustain works worthy of salvation. Paul said, "No one is justified by the Law before God" (Gal 3:11) (and then went on to say, "The just shall live by faith" ... quoting the Old Testament). The Old Testament sacrificial system saved no one (Heb 10:4). And if God changed salvation, God changed.

There are two methods of getting into heaven. There have always been two and only two. Be perfect or trust Christ. If God's version of good and bad, right and wrong, how we should and should not live has changed, God has changed. Simple as that.

And, no, still no contradiction. What you are pointing to are what are called "apparent contradictions", things that appear at first glance to contradict but, when examined more closely, do not. That's because God's Word cannot contradict God's Word. That is a fact, and I have yet to find an actual contradiction. That is, of course, unless Pauline Dispensationalism is true. Then we have lots of contradictions, a Word that cannot be trusted, a God who changes, and no confidence in the future.

Unknown said...

So how is it possible that Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ in the Transfiguration if they were not saved? Christ hadn't even died yet.

If you could please show me in the bible where Moses and Elijah heard the message of the cross of Christ to trust in it?

If not then how were they saved?

U said in your reply, There have always been two and only two. Be perfect or trust Christ.

Trust Christ!

Well this is Christ

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

So was Jesus Christ messing around by ask ing them to do the Law?

Why not Just trust me! That's it.

Stan said...

Oh, I see the problem. We're using different Bibles.

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." (John 14:15) That is not "Keep My commandments to show you love Me." That says (as James did) that faith produces a response. Those who love Christ will keep His commandments. We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone (which James termed "dead faith").

But, look, it's clear you're not reading what I've responded. Moses and Elijah were saved by faith in Christ. I said that salvation comes only and always through faith in Christ. (Please note: "Christ" is the term for "the Messiah". It wasn't Jesus's last name.) The Christ was known from Genesis 3 ... which I pointed out way back on 6/25. Those saved today are saved by faith in the Christ who came and died and rose for us. Those who were saved before Jesus were saved by faith in the Promised Christ. Using Paul's example, that's how Abraham was saved--through faith.

And Jesus told them two things (just as I mentioned in the previous response). You can either be perfect (and He tells them repeatedly the need to keep all the commandments for that) or you can place your trust in Christ, the bread of life, the living water ... I'm sure you've read those things. One is "Here's what you have to do ... and you can't" and the other is "So repent and put your trust in Me." Oh, and He wasn't kidding. There will be a response of obedience in any true believer. We call it "sanctification", the process of becoming more Christ-like.

Look, Daniel, I see you're going back and deleting what you've said and I see that you're not paying attention to my responses and I see that you have no possibility of questioning what you have come to believe, so we can finish this now. I've examined the question at length and, given my sure conviction that your belief is a heresy, not just a mistake, I'm certainly not going to be convinced that the Bible has contradictions, God changed His mind, and every Christian prior to the 19th century was wrong and the Spirit failed to do what Jesus promised. So, we're done. Thanks for the conversation (which, for reasons I can't fathom, you're deleting). Let's not go on. I won't feel any obligation to post any more of your comments. Don't feel any obligation to make them.

Rightly Divided said...

Stan,

To help understand a mediating position on this issue you can separate two issues:
1. God's immutability
2. Sola gratia, fide & Christus

1. While God is immutable. He DOES change the way he deals with mankind through different ages. His rules, commands, promises, punishments etc. change. For example: In the Garden the only food is derived from herb bearing seed and trees (Gen 1:29); after the flood Noah ate every moving thing, but not the blood (Gen 9:2-4); During the Mosaic Law period God limited His people's diet considerably and called MANY animals UNCLEAN (LEV 11, DEUT 14 ETC.)

The the cross and now food previously designated as unclean is now clean in God's eyes: Acts 10. This cleansing of food was used by God to illustrate that the former Gentile dogs are also likewise now "clean" Acts 11.

And a simple comparison of two verses shows the transitional (dare is say dispensational) dealing of God towards man:

Deuteronomy 14:10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Note that Paul said this in the context of food.

I will post my comment about the 3 solas after I see what your response is to this issue of immutability on the part of God.

And lastly, something to consider when quoting verses like Mal 3:6 (...I change not...) James 1:17 and Heb 13:8: Prior to the incarnation the Godhead (ontologically speaking) was only spirit (John 4:3). Yet afterward, the Son was now fully human. And a member of the Godhead was now "the God-Man" (hypostatic union) where Christ is fully man and fully God. And a member of the Godhead would now have a body.

These two examples alone should shape our understanding of the immutability of God and the Godhead.

Jeff Ayers

Stan said...

Yes, God's methods for dealing with humans over time changes (as opposed to God changing). Pauline Dispensationalism, however, says that God's Word has changed, that only Paul's letters are to Christians and all other texts are not, and that, in essence, Jesus was wrong when He said, "Not one jot or tittle will pass away."

Anonymous said...

Dispesationalism is a heresy that teaches that a person can be saved by their works. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. We have nothing to offer God. Jesus is the "ark," and the ONLY way to be saved from God's wrath is by entering into Him. And we enter into Him through faith according to the book of Ephesians. The book of Hebrews tells us that the Old Testament saints pleased God because of their faith, not their works. And all have come to Mount Zion, the heavenly city. Even Abraham looked for that heavenly city whose builder and maker is God.
Those who believe that anyone can be saved by works of the law have no understanding of the utter sinfulness of man. We were all DEAD in sin. The only way anyone, Old Testament or New, has ever received life is by being buried with Christ in baptism, and raised to new life in Him. Obedience to the law cannot give us life. We, Old Testament saint and New, are given life when we believe. "Having believe, you were marked in Him with a seal, the Promised Holy Spirit (who is our LIFE). Abraham believed also, and it was this faith that saved him. The Law, given 400 years after Abraham, does not set aside this grace. The Law was given to show us our total inability to obtain righteousness through it. It was a tutor, meant to lead us to Christ, so that we may be saved by faith.
I doubt that many dispensationalists actually understand the ramifications of what they believe. They put their faith in human teachers, and assume that what they believe is taught in Scripture. The don't realize that dispensationalism implies that one can be saved without Jesus. They would all deny this, of course, but that is exactly what this believe implies. No one, absolutely no one, can ever be saved except by being buried with Christ in baptism, and raised to life in Him. He is the Ark. We (both Old and New Testament saints) are the planks of gopher wood. He is the Temple. We (both Old and New Testament saints) are all living stones. We (both Old and New Testament saints) are members of His Body. When Jesus died, Adam, the old creation, died in Him. When Jesus rose from the dead, He became the Firstfruits of a new creation. When He returns ALL who died in Him through faith will be raised from the dead. When Jesus suffered the wrath of God on the cross, we were in Him by faith. Peter tells us that the flood of Noah represents baptism that saves us. And that is the only way anyone can be saved. Anyone outside of Christ will not survive the wrath of God.
The belief that anyone can be saved by anything they do, including obedience to the Mosaic Law, is nothing more than human pride.
This also shows that a PreTrib rapture is heresy. If the Ark is taken to heaven prior to the Tribulation, Tribulation saints could never be saved, neither by their works, nor by their suffering.

Stan said...

While it should be abundantly clear that I am no friend of Pauline Dispensationalism, I can see that you and I have radically a different understanding of what they hold ... and, I think, the way we use the term "heresy".

I know of no Dispensationalist who believes that a person can be saved by their works, so it would not be accurate to claim that they teach that. I know of no Dispensationalist that does not teach that salvation is only by grace through faith in Christ. Dispensationalism, in fact, has nothing to do with salvation; it has to do with a belief in a system of historical progression consisting of a series of stages ("dispensations") in God's self-revelation and plan of salvation. No Christian disagrees with progressive revelation from the Mosaic sacrificial system to the fulfilment in Christ. That is, no one prior to Christ understood that they were saved by grace through faith in Christ. The alternative to Dispensationalism is Covenantalism which teaches that, rather than historical periods, where biblical history is a series of covenants that include God's self-revelation and plan of salvation.

The teaching that we can be saved by works is Pelagianism and is indeed heresy ... and not Christian.

Without defending the "pre-Trib rapture" concept, your last paragraph confuses me. You call it "heresy". I'm not sure that word means what you think it means. You compare it to an ark being taken to heaven. You already said that the "ark" was Jesus. Is it now "the saints"? Are the tribulation saints saved by being a part of the saints, or are they saved by being in Christ? Does the "rapture" mean that Christ is taken away? Very confusing. Perhaps you ought to think that one through again. (And I'm not suggesting that you conclude that the pre-Trib rapture is true. I'm suggesting that your thinking on it is muddled.)

One other point. This post was about a specific form of Dispensationalism -- Pauline Dispensationalism. It is a category all its own. In that sense your entire comment was off topic.

Anonymous said...

Romans 11:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
See? If salvation is by grace then it is no more longer of works, why? bec. if you ADD even 1% of work to 99% of grace to make 100% salvation, salvation would no longer be by grace!!! this verse stresses the impossibility of mixing grace and works! If we are saved now by grace, that's it, NO MORE WORKS NEEDED.
How about the past dispensation, the O.T.? Read Rom.11:6 upward. begin v.1-5. isn't it O.T. saints Paul was referring? take close attention to v.5 kindly repeat reading this 5x..

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

"Even so"
"Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME"
"Even so then at this present time ALSO"
"Even so then at this present time also THERE IS"
"Even so then at this present time also there is A REMNANT ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE".
Words hilighted thru caps, no further explanation needed. Hope this will help to everyone who seriously wants to know if God's word really teaches different salvation in different dispensations. Grace to you.

Stan said...

Trust me, if I understood what you were trying to say, I'd be able to respond. I don't. You're saying, it appears, that prior to ... Paul (and not Christ), people were saved by works? And not by grace? Prior to Paul's Dispensation, people earned salvation?

I know you said "no further explanation needed, but I really don't know what you're trying to say. I'm afraid further explanation is needed.

Stan said...

By the way, When the King James says "... no more of works", that is not to say "It was once works." It is to say that grace precedes works. Remember, it was Paul who proves salvation by grace through faith on the basis of Abraham's justification by faith (Rom 4:1-4). Paul claims that Abraham was justified by grace through faith. It appears that you claim that there was a time when salvation was by works in opposition to what Paul claims.

Anonymous said...

stan, we're on the same position. hyper D believe o.t. saints were saved by works. Rom.11:6 clearly refutes it. my point is grace and works will never ever to be mixed, that's what God said. however Rom.11:6 pertains to this present dispensation, and they (hyperD) also believe salvation is by grace apart from works in this dispensation but their salvation in the o.t. is by works so I included Rom.11:1-5 to prove that salvation even in the o.t. was by grace apart from works by the words in v.5 "even so".

Stan said...

Nice to be on the same page.

Anonymous said...

Brother Stan I am thankful I stumbled upon your blog, I am from East Africa I am not well versed in the english language so bear with me.

I would like you to direct me to resources that I can learn from in order to refute this heresy that has mushroomed in my country in the past decade thanks.

Stan said...

There is stuff by John MacArthur and Phil Johnson. You can look up hyper-dispensationalism (with and without the hyphen). There are good sources. The difficulty is that not all dispensationalism is Pauline dispensationalism, so it can be tricky.

My best source for refuting the heresy is Scripture. The Pauline dispensationalists argue for a second gospel. Paul argued there was only one (Gal 1:7). God's Word says, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3:16-17) If the Pauline Dispensationalists are going to try to suggest two gospels and limit Scripture to "Paul alone", they're going to have to do it against Paul's own words.

Anonymous said...

After reading this thread I have a question about the difference between Classis Dispensationalism and Mid Acts. Early dispirs like Moody, Torrey, Chafer, and Stamford all believed and taught "Pauline" Dispensationalism....two peoples of God, an earthly people and a heavenly people, and distinguished between the audiences of NT epistles as well. The question is, is the only difference between what they taught and the mid acts view pertaining to when the church age started (Acts 2, 8, or 29)?

Stan said...

The Pauline Dispensationalism you're talking about is not the same as the Pauline Dispensationalism this article is about. Theirs is simply "When did the current Dispensation begin?" The one I'm talking about holds that the current Dispensation began with Paul and eliminated everything else, especially in terms of Scripture. Nothing beyond Paul's writings have any bearing in Christianity. Throw out the Gospels, Acts, John's epistles, Peter's epistles, James, Hebrews, Jude, and even Revelation. Just Paul's letters. So James's "faith without works is dead" is out. Jesus's "If you love Me you'll keep My commandments" is not applicable. "Did James and Paul disagree? Yes, yes they did." It is an extreme view primarily aimed at holding to antinomianism -- no rules for Christian living; just grace. It includes a complete replacement of the Church for Israel. It ignores a lot of what Paul himself wrote.

Exactly when the Church Age began (the Resurrection, Pentecost, or Paul) or even if Dispensationalism is valid is not a part of this topic. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful on that.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Those who believe that we are saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone have believed a false gospel that adds works to the gospel and cannot save and those who have always believed that false gospel have never been saved

Stan said...

Those who believe that faith without works is perfectly good, saving faith haven't read their Bibles (James 2:14ff). Works don't save. But if faith produces nothing at all, it is dead faith.

Stan said...

By the way, Paul disagrees with you (e.g., Eph 2:8-10; Phil 2:12)

Anonymous said...

Ephesians 2:10 for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we SHOULD walk in them. all Ephesians 2:10 says is that we should walk in Good Works that God has prepared for us doesn't say that we will or that we have to and Philippians 2:12 just says we are to work out our salvation doesn't say that we will or that we have to and Romans 4:6 clearly says by Paul quoting David we don't have to do anything in return for the free gift of eternal life Romans 4:6 King David says the same thing he tells us how blessed people are when God makes them write with himself they are blessed because they don't have to do anything in return. If you want to call Paul and David a liar for saying we don't have to do anything in return for the free gift well that's your choice Paul clearly refute you when he teaches that we don't have to do anything in return for the free gift and if a Believer never does anything in return after receiving the free gift according to First Corinthians 3:15 and 2 Timothy 2:12-13 makes it clear that if a Christian believer continues in sin or even departs from the faith and goes back into unbelief they will only lose their Eternal rewards and be denied ruling with Christ in his Heavenly Kingdom but they are still saved and James was written to the 12 tribes of Israel who will have to go through the tribulation James 1:1 James 5:3 it was not written to Christians in the body of Christ who will not have to go through the tribulation but will be raptured out before it happens according to Romans 5:9 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 1 Thessalonians 1:10 1 Thessalonians 4:16 1 Thessalonians 5:9 you have believe a false gospel by adding Works to it and if you've always done that then you've never been saved

Stan said...

We clearly read different Bibles coming to different conclusions. Yours is a savior that can save on the basis of mental acquiescence with no result in the individual and mine is a Savior that saves on the basis of faith (not mere mental acquiescence) and provides a new heart through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, making it impossible to "make a practice of sin" (1 John 3:9). Not impossible to sin, but impossible to avoid changing from the old to the new (2 Cor 5:17). From your view if works are the result of faith then works are the cause of salvation. From my view works result from salvation because God "is at work in you to will and to do His good pleasure." (Phil 2:13) You said, "Philippians 2:12 just says we are to work out our salvation doesn't say that we will or that we have to" but Phil 2:12 ends with a comma, followed by verse 13 which says that the reason we work out our salvation is because God is at work in us. And "don't have to"? For what? To be saved? I'd agree. To follow Paul's God-given command? Clearly we have to.

I'm not saying "You have to work to be saved." What I'm saying is that Scripture clearly indicates over and over that the result of coming to Christ in faith is a changed heart which results naturally in a changed life which naturally includes good works. These works don't save, but result from salvation already given. What must we do to be saved? Believe. That's not the question. The question is what results from that? You say "Maybe nothing." Scripture says otherwise.

Anonymous said...

What if a person never wants to live for the Lord but only wants the free gift and is just content with going to heaven are you saying they can't be saved or they're not really saved if they have that attitude because the Bible says otherwise that's all I'm saying. if a person who never wants to live for the Lord but still wants to be saved and go to heaven they can be saved and go to heaven without ever having to live for the Lord or produce a changed life and I believe those that disagree with that are adding works to the gospel because in affect their saying a person has to live for the Lord to go to heaven

Stan said...

This is what I'm talking about. I suppose your view is not uncommon. I suppose it's even popular. That's all well and good ... but it's not biblical. Paul wrote of testing yourself to see if you're in the faith (2 Cor 13:5). Jesus said, "If you love Me you will keep My commandments." John said that it is impossible for those born of God to practice sin (1 John 3:9). James said that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Paul said that you are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus (Acts 16:31).

Look, people are people. The way we operate is according to our natures. If we are born again (Jesus said, "Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)) then we have a new nature. That new nature causes a change in outlook, in behavior, in everything. If there is no change as you suggest, then there is no "born again". Or Scripture is not to be trusted. Your call.

Anonymous said...

Well if you want to mix Israel's prophetic performance-based acceptance program with the new program that God started through the Apostle Paul that excludes performance of any kind and now only requires faith in Jesus dying for your sins being buried and rising from the dead in order to be saved and have eternal life as a free gift Romans 3:21 Romans 4:5 Romans 4:25 Romans 11:6 that's your choice you're adding Works to the gospel and are the enemy of the cross. when Jesus said if you love me you will keep my Commandments he was speaking to Israel John 1:11 John 14:15 if Israel loved him they would keep his Commandments not just the 10 but all 613 according to Matthew 10:4 John 1:11 Jesus was only speaking to Israel in those verses under the law program Galatians 4:4 so him speaking to Israel does not apply to me since I'm not under their law program and never have been does that mean I should break the law since I'm not under it no i should uphold it as Paul says in Romans 3:31 and Paul makes it clear that it is possible for a Christian to practice sin and still be a True Believer 2 Corinthians 12:21 makes that very clear when it says 2 Corinthians 12:21 I fear that when I come again my God may have to Humble me before you and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented(changed their mind) of their impurity sexual immorality and sensuality they have practiced.1 Corinthians 3:15 makes it clear that if these Corinthians didn't cease practicing their impurity and immorality and sensuality they would suffer the loss of their Eternal rewards but they are still saved 1st Corinthians 3:15 if it is burned up the Builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved even though as one escaping through the flames. so don't try to tell me that it's impossible for Christians to practice sin under this new program of Grace which we shouldn't do but even if we do it does not affect our Salvation in any way only our Rewards

Stan said...

And that, dear readers, is Pauline Dispensationalism. You know where Jesus said that Scripture wouldn't pass away? Well, He was wrong. You know where Scripture says that no one is saved by works? Well, it was wrong. All those Old Testament folks were. Salvation by grace is new. How new? Jesus didn't even offer it. It was PAUL. And this "new program" (Anonymous's words) means you believe (something ... not clear what) and -- POOF! -- you're in. Changed heart? No. Changed life? No. Changed ... at all? Only if you want to. You can make a practice of sin because 1 John wasn't writing on Pauline theology. You can have faith without works because James wasn't writing on Pauline theology. Proverbs says, "Every word of God proves true," (Prov 30:5), but that's not entirely true. Jesus said, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God," (Matt 4:1), but that wasn't actually true. Paul stands alone as applicable, real Scripture. The rest of that stuff can, basically, be flushed.

Oh, and me pointing this stuff out makes me "the enemy of the cross" and "never been saved." I'm the idiot who placed his confidence in the whole Word of God and these people have figured out the truth that we can just pare it down the Paul's stuff.

Anonymous, I have one recommendation to you. You should learn to pay attention to the things people are saying rather than responding to things never said. I explicitly and repeatedly agreed that there are no works required for salvation. You repeatedly claim I am saying there is. I have repeatedly said that works are the RESULT of salvation, but you don't seem to see that. I said we do sin, but cannot make a practice of sin (because that's what the Bible says). You accused me of suggesting sinlessness. If you can't respond to an actual position, don't respond. It doesn't help your cause.

Anonymous said...

you believe that works don't save us do you believe that if we don't have Works resulting from that faith causing us to practice good works and no longer practice sin that we're not really saved if that's what you believe then you believe in Salvation by works and are not saved so please clarify with me on that

Anonymous said...

You are not saved if you believe that works don't save but if you don't have works then you are not saved. you are teaching you have to have faith and Works in order to be saved by believing that false doctrine of devils. the truth is Works don't save and even if we don't have works we are still saved 1st Corinthians 15:1-4 1 Corinthians 3:15 Romans 4:4-6 Ephesians 2:8-9 2 Timothy 1:9 Titus 3:5

Stan said...

I believe that works do not save (Eph 2:8-9). I believe that true Christians sin (1 John 1:8) and, when we do, we have an Advocate (1 John 2:1). I also believe that we are saved for (not by) good works (Eph 2:10) and that we work out our salvation by the work of God in us giving us both the will and the power to do so (Phil 2:12-13). I believe that every word of God proves true (Prov 30:5), that until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished (Matt 5:18). I believe that ALL Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17). I believe that those in Christ are new creations (2 Cor 5:17) born again (John 3:3, 5), so they are changed from the inside out, being changed by God into the image of His Son (Rom 8:28-29). I believe all this because that's what God's Word says.

You believe that Humans remain Sovereign over God, taking His offered salvation without any professed love for Christ (John 14:15). They can have "faith", but no Lord (Acts 16:31). God will save them for no purpose at all because they ticked off that box that says, "Believe." You believe all this in contradiction to Scripture. You've been lied to.

Anonymous said...

You believe that a person has to have a changed life and if their life never changed they didn't really get saved that is salvation by works you have been lied to. Christians have the free will to live for God and they have the free will to live for themselves and they're still saved. Christians who only live for themselves will be denied ruling with Christ in his kingdom and lose their Eternal rewards that's it 1 Corinthians 3:15 2 Corinthians 5:15 2 Timothy 2:12-13 is proof of this it says we should no longer live for ourselves but we should live for Jesus Christ who died and rose again for us and if we don't we're still saved Romans 4:4-6 makes clear we don't have to do any of that in return at all for the free gift you make the gift a reward that God owes us you require us to do works in return you are one of Satan's Ministers of righteousness who is going to be annihilated in the Lake of Fire if you do not change your mind about your false gospel and believe the true one you clearly don't want to believe in the true doctrine of gaining rewards and losing them because of sinful living or holy living. faithful Believers get Eternal rewards and the privilege of rolling with Christ in heaven Unfaithful Believers don't but they both to get salvation because it's free you don't know what a free gift is

Stan said...

Look, Anonymous, it's okay. You can stop now. I get it. You believe I'm damned because I don't agree with your limited version of the Bible and don't agree that faith without works is living faith. I've offered Scripture after Scripture to point out why and you've never addressed even one. I've agreed that we are saved apart from works and you won't allow it because I've also pointed out (from Paul and from the rest of Scripture) that God's work in the life of a believer is not a failed attempt. You believe that salvation is obtained by checking off the "I believe" box and nothing else happens after that. I believe that all of Scripture is still true and no one was ever saved by works and I'm an "enemy of the cross". I get it.

Someday -- clearly not today, here, now -- you'll have to figure out how to get the whole picture, how to see that all Scripture is God's Word and is still true today. Then you'll have to see how the Old Testament works with the New Testament and the Gospels work with Paul's writings and how Jesus and James and John and Peter weren't false teachers presenting a false gospel that, fortunately, Paul corrected. Clearly I'm not going to be the one that helps you through that effort because as long as you see people who believe the whole Bible as "Satan's Ministers" you will remain blind to the truth.

I've never suggested you aren't a Christian. I've never argued that you are evil or not saved. You've said all that and worse about me. I think you're misguided on your view of Scripture and I think you've been lied to on your view that God can produce a new heart in a person that has absolutely no effect on that person or that the Holy Spirit can inhabit a believer with no alteration in their daily life. But you're not going to receive that from me. You'll have to get it somewhere else. I would urge you to curb your apparent hatred for people who disagree with your view. It's not helping your ministry at all.

So, unless you have something else to offer, stop. I won't be posting any more of your comments. Not out of anger or frustration, but because you've said nothing friendly (the primary rule for commenting on my blog) and nothing more. You've refused to interact with me on Scripture and created, instead, a pile of contradictions where your view is right and every other point in Scripture is wrong including Jesus and Paul. You've made your point. We get it. Go on, then, and make your point elsewhere. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I pray you'll find the truth.

Stan said...

For reference, Anonymous, biblical hatred is to devalue or minimize something.

Anonymous said...

Hi Stan I read your previous conversations and u state that ur bible verses were not responded to. Well I noticed Anonymous mentioned that Jesus was addressing Israel. What do u make of that response?

Stan said...

The vast majority of Jesus's words in the New Testament were not directed at Israel; they are directed to His disciples. When He said, "If You love Me you will keep My commandments," He was talking to His disciples. When He prayed to His Father, He prayed "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20). And, beyond that, if when Jesus said that Scripture would not pass away He actually meant, "You know, not for another 3 or 4 years or so, and then, yeah, it's really gone," I don't know what to make of it.

The odd thing to me in all of this is that Paul reverenced Jesus and His words and Paul preached that works were important even though they did not provide salvation and, still, Pauline Dispensationalism is happy to dismiss Jesus and Paul in favor of ... Paul.

Bottom line, though, what I would have to believe is that a person can be born again, dead to sin and alive to righteousness, indwelt by the Spirit, given a new heart, with God at work in them to will and to do His good pleasure ... and none of that could have any effect on their lives. I guess I just don't believe in the omnipotence of human beings.

Anonymous said...

As you rightly said works are important even though they do not provide salvation and God does work in saved people to will and to do His good pleasure. I guess the question then is if there's not yet evidence of God's effect in a saved person, does that mean the person wasn't saved to begin with? Because Paul rebukes a lot of sins in the church, especially in Corinthians, but the Bible doesn't indicate any problems with their position as grace saved members of the church.

Stan said...

I would say that's not my call ... but anyone who finds themselves unchanged might have a good reason to ask themselves those kinds of questions ... like Paul said (2 Cor 13:5).

Anonymous said...

Paul made it clear in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Ephesians 4:30 2 Timothy 1:9 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13 that members of the body of Christ have a permanent present possession of salvation even if they don't change their lifestyle afterwards it will only result in them losing their Eternal rewards and being denied reigning with Christ in heaven because of their unfaithfulness that's it.you can agree to disagree with that but if you disagree with that you're adding Works to the gospel negating the free gift of God 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Galatians 1:8-9

Stan said...

I'm sorry, anonymous, that you misunderstood my point. I am not arguing that people can lose their salvation. I believe in the Perseverance of God for the Saints, in Eternal Security. I believe that we're saved by grace apart from works. No disagreement there.

My primary disagreement with Pauline Dispensationalism is their elimination of a major portion of God's Word as no longer relevant, to include all of the Old Testament and anything in the New Testament not written by Paul. The massive arrogance required to claim that is beyond my comprehension. The other place I disagree with Pauline Dispensationalism is in their belief that you can be born again (Jesus's words), a new creation (Paul's words), crucified with Christ (Paul's words) -- spiritually dead to spiritually alive -- and nothing changes. No effect. No alteration. Nothing changed. Paul warned that it is possible to "fail to meet the test" (2 Cor 13:5). By failing to do good works? No, by believing you're saved when you're not. That condition can be tested for, and the primary test is "Have I changed at all?" The works are the necessary result of salvation, not a cause. Paul and the rest of Scripture agree on that. Pauline Dispensationalists deny it. They argue you can be saved and never change at all.

If you agree with them that only Paul's words are applicable to us today, you're a Pauline Dispensationalist. If you agree that those who are saved cannot be lost, you're a Christian, simply agreeing not just with Paul, but with Christ, and I agree with you on that.

Unknown said...

I would label myself as a pauline dispensationalists if a person who has recognized they are sinner has put their trust in Jesus Christ and his death burial and Resurrection alone and not their own works for salvation they are saved even if they don't change their life and never do any Works in return but they will be denied Eternal rewards and they will be denied ruling with Christ in heaven because of that that's it anything else is a false gospel as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 Romans 4:4-6 Ephesians 4:30 Galatians 1:8-9 Galatians 2:16 Galatians 6:9 Colossians 1:23 Colossians 3:24-25 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13 teaches. and you stan still believe in Works salvation by saying that works are a necessary result in Salvation but not a Cause you are still saying you have to have faith and works to be saved I just don't think you see the contradiction.if a person has to have a changed life in order to truly be saved that is salvation by works that's because it takes human effort and work to change your life even if you're doing it with the help of the spirit you're still exhibiting Human effort you can agree to disagree on that if you want but I'm going to continue to believe what I believe that's what I see in the scriptures. And you claim to believe in perseverance of the Saints eternal security as you call it but perseverance of the Saints says all True Believers will persevere in the faith and Holiness and good works otherwise they will prove to not be true believers that is salvation by faith plus works and not true eternal security true eternal security teaches that once you have recognized you are a sinner and you have trusted in Jesus Christ in his death burial and Resurrection alone for your salvation not your works you are saved and have eternal life whether you continue in the faith or not

Stan said...

And you are misunderstanding at best and outright lying at worse. I have always and consistently denied salvation by works. It is impossible to deny salvation by works and believe in works salvation. Paul taught we had to test ourselves to see if we were in the faith. You disagree?

You believe in an impotent Savior who relies entirely on mental acquiescence -- "Sure, I believe in Jesus" -- and produces nothing necessarily. Paul's "all things become new" means nothing at all, really. You've managed to disconnect all of Scripture from Scripture leaving only pieces of Paul's writings and nothing else including the words of the Savior. And that's why I object to Pauline Dispensationalism.

Unknown said...

Well the Savior during his Earthly Ministry under the law Taught Faith plus works for salvation according to John 4:22 and John 5:28-29 teaching that you had to put your faith in him as the Messiah and do good works the rest of your life in order to be saved under the law which contradicts Romans 11:6 and Romans 11:11 paul says the exact opposite of that he say it is by faith alone in Jesus and his death burial and Resurrection now and I'll show you but you'll ignore it just like other anti Pauline dispensationalists and anti dispensationalists do John 4:22 you Samaritans worship what you do not know we worship what we do know for salvation is from the Jews John 5:28 do not be amazed at this for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice John 5:29 and come out those who have done what is good will live and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned Romans 11:6 but if it is by Grace it is NO LONGER on the basis of works otherwise Grace would NO LONGER be grace Romans 11:11 so I asked did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous if you can read these verses And still think that if you don't have Works to go with your faith you don't really have faith and that your not saved because of that well then you're mixing law and Grace and I don't know what else to do with you except pray that you will see the truth hopefully you will

Stan said...

You misread the Scriptures, so it's no wonder that you're getting this wrong. Jesus taught, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). "Born again" is the only means by which you can even see the kingdom of God. "Born again" does not occur by "faith plus works." If you believe that Paul contradicts Christ, you believe that Paul was an irrational heretic. "He's my Savior, even if He was wrong on the key item -- the gospel." Paul called his gospel "the gospel of Christ" (Rom 15:19; 2 Cor 9:12; 2 Cor 9:13; etc.) and "the gospel of God" (Rom 1:1; Rom 15:16; 1 Thess 2:2; etc.). His gospel was no different than the one true Gospel that belonged to the Father and was taught by the Son. No one at any time has ever been saved by "faith plus works." Old Testament believers were saved by faith in the Christ they were promised (Gen 3:15) but had not seen (e.g., Hab 2:4; Rom 4:1-25). New Testament believers are saved by faith in the Christ we have seen. There is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

Or ... Jesus was wrong, Peter was wrong, Peter was wrong, James was wrong, John was wrong ... well, everyone but Paul, apparently, who, oh, by the way, also affirmed his gospel was Christ's gospel, so I guess he was wrong, too. What happened in your mind? Who is it that is ignoring Scripture? Not me. You have a brand new belief set (the arrogance of people who think that no Christian in all of time has figured out this basic, fundamental, essential truth but those of us with this brand new doctrine is astounding to me) that supersedes every biblical understanding in the past 2,000 years and I cannot figure out why you think that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are so incompetent.

(By the way, when Paul says, "If it is by grace it is no longer by works" he doesn't mean "It once was." He means "It is in no way by works." And please note, according to the context of the passage, that the "it" that is "no longer on the basis of works" is not salvation; it is being chosen (Rom 11:5).)

Unknown said...

You obviously ignored verse 11 which says salvation has come to the Gentiles so Paul is obviously talking about salvation in verse 6 and he says it's no longer on the basis of works no longer on the basis of Works means that it used to be on the basis of Works otherwise you don't understand what language means. with your logic if someone once worked at Red Lobster but no longer works at Red Lobster but now works at McDonald's or some other place you would conclude that they never worked at Red Lobster because they no longer work there that is just stupid logic and thinking and you're clearly ignoring what John said in John 4:22 and John 5:28-29 Peter agrees with John that under the law those who feared God and did works of righteousness would be accepted by him for salvation but you're probably going to ignore that too and say that peter didnt mean what he said there as well and you're free to do that and I believe you're wrong for doing so and you're right that works never saved anyone they demonstrated that their faith was real and under the law you were required to demonstrate your faith was real by your Works because if you didn't it would prove your faith wasn't real but now under grace you don't have to do that but you should that's the difference

Stan said...

Shall we compare who is ignoring Scripture more? I am taking it all into account -- one Word of God. You are tossing everything but most of Paul's writings ... not all. What I find astounding is your apparent hatred for those who hold the historic, orthodox view on this. You don't merely disagree; you hate.

John 4:22 is absolutely true. Even Paul said so. Jesus was a Jew of the Jewish line provided by promises to Jews ... for Gentiles. Salvation is from the Jews. Are you also an anti-Semite? John 5:28-29 says nothing at all about who gets saved or how.

Look, you keep wrongfully accusing me of ignoring Scripture while you keep ignoring every Scripture I offer. Paul said, "By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified" (Gal 2:16). You say that lots of people were justified by works before Paul's gospel hit the air. Paul said, "No man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 3:11). You say Christ preached a false gospel. Paul wrote, "No one is justified by the Law before God is evident" and quotes Habakkuk 2:4 (Old Testament) to prove it (Gal 3:11). You say the Old Testament preaches works-based salvation and should be jettisoned. Paul said we are to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12) and you tell me that works have no part in a believer's life. Who is ignoring Scripture? You ignore mine. You ignore Christ's. You ignore Paul's. And you do it with such disrespect.

I have only one rule in this comment section. "Keep it friendly." You're pushing well past that line. I'm perfectly capable and happy to discuss things with people who respectfully disagree. You have no such intent. In a short while you could become only the second person I ban from commenting on my blog if your tone doesn't change.

Unknown said...

I believe that works play no part in a believer's life when it concerns Salvation And if they never do any Works they still have salvation as a free gift that is where you and I have a disagreement on. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13 makes it clear that if a Believer chooses to remain faithful to Jesus living a Godly life that will result in them getting Eternal rewards and getting to rule with Christ in heaven because if they don't do that they will be denied their Eternal Rewards and they will be denied ruling with Christ in heaven you disagree with that and say that's not good enough they have to go to hell if they don't live a faithful Godly life that makes you guilty of denying faith alone for salvation you believe that a person has to put their faith in Jesus and his death burial and Resurrection plus live a faithful Godly life until the day they die to get eternal life and eternal rewards and to be able to rule with Christ in heaven which is salvation by faith plus works and I never said that people in the Old Testament were justified by works of the law I said their faith was indicated that it was real because they were performing The Works of the law which they were required to do to demonstrate their faith was real if they didn't demonstrate their faith by obeying the law it wasn't real under the law in God's eyes since Jesus sacrifice hadn't been made yet they had to do what God required under the law in order to be considered righteous that was put their faith in God and obey the law to demonstrate their faith was real Deuteronomy 6:24 is clear on that as well as acts 10:35 and James 2:14-26 I recommend you going to Grace ambassadors.Com and read the article man is always saved by grace you will get a better understanding of what mid-acts dispensationalism teaches on this subject and if you do read the article I would like your opinion on what you think about it and what your agreements and disagreements on it are you have a good day

Stan said...

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Either I'm an outright liar or a complete idiot ... or perhaps you think I'm both. You tell me "you believe that a person has to put their faith in Jesus and his death burial and Resurrection plus live a faithful Godly life until the day they die to get eternal life and eternal rewards and to be able to rule with Christ in heaven" and I deny that -- have continued to deny that -- categorically.

You aren't making more arguments, just false accusations. I believe that the Bible is God's Word in its entirety. I don't believe that parts should be stricken from the record, let alone the vast majority. I don't believe that God made mistakes or that His Son lied or that Paul was confused when He taught "the gospel of Christ." I don't believe God was incompetent in His revelation throughout history or that the Holy Spirit was incompetent in revealing the truth to God's people as Jesus promised He would. I don't believe that Christ saves for no purpose or no effect. I don't believe that works save in any way or that those who are born of God can cease being born of God -- lose their salvation. I believe that you're wrong in what you believe in the things you believe over against Scripture and historical orthodoxy, but I don't believe you're not saved. Believing as I do that God's Word is God's Word in its entirety, I have to try to make sense of it as a whole without cutting out the parts that I deem don't fit with my preconceived understanding.

I believe you're fine with that approach and I believe you have no interest in considering any other possible alternative or examining any other ideas from the pages of God's Word (which, by the way, is what you keep accusing me of). Since you choose to ignore the many arguments and Scripture that I offer for your examination, I think I'm done responding to you. I will pray that you will reconsider God, His Son, the Holy Spirit, salvation, and God's Word.

Unknown said...

If you truly believed in eternal security you would believe that once a person has recognized they are a sinner and put their trust in Jesus Christ and his death burial and Resurrection alone for their salvation and not their own works that they are saved and have eternal life even if they don't continue in the faith they are still saved but it will only result in them losing their Eternal rewards and be denied ruling with Christ in heaven if that's the eternal security you believe in then you believe in true eternal security but you don't believe in that type of eternal security you believe a person is only eternally secure if they continue in the faith until the day they die you believe in faith plus works but you're going to deny that believe what you want in my mind you're lost until you believe in that type of eternal security

Stan said...

Tyler, I'm sorry to learn of your learning disability. I prefer to think of it as a disability rather than genuine malice. Otherwise you have decided to ignore anything that anyone says for any reason -- Scripture, logic, orthodoxy, history, any reason at all -- and continue to falsely accuse those with whom you disagree. Little hint here. If you want to argue against someone's views, you have to understand their views. You don't understand mine although you boldly declare what I absolutely deny. If you don't know what I believe or why, you might ask. I know you won't. You are quick to speak, slow to hear, and quick to anger. But that comes from James and that's one of the books you've erased from your Bible. Don't expect me to post another of your comments if they're like these have been. You're not interested in friendly dialogue or discussion of ideas. You fail to meet my minimum standards of a continued conversation.

Anonymous said...

When you come to believe that salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus and death burial and Resurrection without having to keep the law of Moses or perform any works of any kind at any time in return and you reject that salvation comes by grace through faith that produces works which is work salvation and a false gospel that's when I will consider you to be a True Believer of the true gospel until then you believe in salvation by faith plus works and you can deny it all you want but that's what you believe and teach by believing that salvation comes by grace through faith that produces works and not by faith alone

Stan said...

I suppose "Anonymous" is a false front for Tyler whom I told not to bother commenting anymore. Luckily for "Anonymous," you believe that Christians can sin boldly and continuously without remorse or repentance without consequences since you persist in lying and defaming me for what I do not believe.

When you come to believe with Paul that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ apart from works (Eph 2:8-9) for the purpose of good works (Eph 2:10), that those who are truly in Christ are new creations (2 Cor 5:17), that those whom Christ saves are made new by God (Php 2:12-13; Rom 8:29-30), when you come to believe the whole counsel of God instead of the limited barely Pauline version you have, I will consider you a biblical Christian. Not yet. I will continue to pray for your enlightenment by the Spirit. It's not me but you that will have to stand in front of the Lord Jesus Christ and declare, "You, Lord, are anathema -- accursed -- because you taught another gospel." We'll see how that works for you. In the meantime, don't expect me to publish another diatribe of lies from you. You think I'm accursed. We get it. Now go read the whole Word of God.

Stan said...

Tyler, you haven't said anything new, haven't responded to the Scriptures or points I offered, and haven't changed your tone. I didn't post your comment.

Stan said...

Just for reference, Tyler. Just because someone carries through on what they promise if you continue in the path you have chosen is not a reason to assume you're right. Nor is it a reason to claim I'm lying to you. Slander without any evidence or reason at all is not typically considered "friendly", kind, or Christian, and in the case of my blog, "friendly" is the primary rule for commenting. Agreeing with me is not. Lots of people have and continue to disagree with me and I'm happy to discuss with them and even change my view if they give me good reason to as long as they're friendly about it. You have done neither.

For your consideration. When you can answer these questions, perhaps you'll be headed down a worthwhile path of thinking.

1. No one in all of Christendom prior to the 20th century ever understood "saved by grace apart from works" to exclude good works as a necessary result in the life of those who are saved. This extreme view only came about in the early 20th century. Why do you think that the Holy Spirit failed to reveal that to all Christians prior to the 20th century?

2. Jesus said God's Word would never pass away. You have determined that most of it has. Most of Christianity, therefore, has attempted to reconcile God's Word with God's Word instead of pitting some against another. For those Christians, they see "saved by grace apart from works" as genuine biblical doctrine. They also see that the obvious, necessary result of being saved by grace apart from works is that the person so saved will do good works, not as a means of accomplishing something, especially salvation, but as a product of a new heart and a grateful heart. You don't. You don't try to fit Scripture with Scripture. You don't believe that the new heart is a changed heart. You don't believe that God actually, effectually works in the believer's heart. Why is that?

3. What is the difference between cause and effect? A fire burns fuel and produces smoke. The smoke is not the cause of a fire; it is the result, an effect. The fire doesn't use the smoke to accomplish its goal of consuming fuel. In the same way, to say we are saved by grace through faith apart from works is a causal statement. To say that those who are thus saved will, by God's hand, be changed is an effect. Can you tell the difference?

These are questions for your consideration. You haven't answered any of my points thus far; I don't expect you to now. You haven't addressed any of my biblical passages thus far; I don't expect it of you now. You haven't actually engaged in anything but misdirection and lies. I was honest when I told you why I didn't post your comment. I even told you in advance that I would for the same reason that I did. I didn't refuse to post your comment because you're right ... or even that you're wrong. You slander me without cause and refuse to actually dialogue on the topic. You offer no new arguments and respond to no counter arguments. Repent, brother. If you're thinking that your side needs to be heard and isn't, may I suggest you find someone who can give your side without the slander or refusal to engage? That might help.

Stan said...

Nice, Tyler. You've achieved what only one other person has achieved so far -- permanent ban from commenting. And I will surely be praying that you come to know Christ before you have to face Him.

Anonymous said...

Hello Stan, I have been reading your blog recently and noticed the two different views on salvation.
1. Salvation by faith in Christ's death and ressurection with an evident righteous lifestyle; which I gather is your belief.

2. Salvation by faith in Christ's death and ressurection irrespective of an evident righteous lifestyle; which is the counter belief.

By your belief, an individual cannot be guaranteed salvation until the end of his/her life, if it can be verified that no sins were committed up until the last moment.

I would like to ask, from your personal belief: how do you maintain assurance of your eternal fate?

I ask this because other faiths: Islam, Catholics, etc actually do believe that at the end of your life, a person's good and bad works will be weighed to see if the good outweighs the bad. Only then is salvation granted.

Stan said...

I read this and it grieves me to see how hard it is to communicate what appears to me to be a simple thing. You make a claim as to what I believe and I cannot fathom where it comes from. I do not believe -- categorically, absolutely, in no way -- that those who are born of God cease from sin. Never happens. It is denied by John (1 John 1:8-2:1). Didn't happen to Paul (Rom 7:7-24). It is not biblical. Christians do not stop sinning.

What then do the Scriptures say? They say that those who come to genuine faith in Christ are internally changed, a new creature, filled with the Spirit, indwelt by Christ, born again. This cannot help but produce external changes in attitude and behavior. The external changes in attitude and behavior do not cause faith in Christ or salvation; they are the natural result.

Let's try an analogy. You come running up to me. "Help! My car is on fire. I left it on the side of the freeway and it's burning up!" I look toward the freeway and note, "There isn't any smoke." Is the car on fire? No smoke would suggest no fire. Because we know that a car on fire produces (note that word) a lot of smoke. The smoke doesn't burn the car; the fire does. But the natural by-product of fire is smoke.

There are those who argue that you can be born from above, indwelt by the Spirit, that the old can pass away and the new come, that God can work within you to give you the desire and power to do His will, that you can come to faith in Christ to do the works that God has prepared beforehand that you should walk in them ... and nothing happens. There is this massive conflagration of God's work in a human being that produces not the slightest wisp of smoke. Paul says to test yourself; they argue there is no test. Seems to me to be a massive contradiction.

As I read Scripture, the genuine believer is a work in progress in the hands of God. He or she will sin, but not as a practice (1 John 3:9). Their lives will not be sinless perfection, but will be an a path toward it, ever-increasing godliness and decreasing sinfulness (2 Peter 1:5-9). Believers will be marked by love for each other (John 13:35). These are results, not causes. The alternative is an impotent God who can just surrender to His children and be sad that nothing He does changes them. I'm surprised they think that God can save. I know that's not a biblical view.

Works don't save. Christians do not achieve sinless perfection in this life. We are not saved by works in any sense. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ apart from works. I affirm all of this. I also affirm (because the Bible teaches) that God changes the people He indwells. The Bible teaches that, too.

Unknown said...

Thank you so much for confronting this spreading heterodoxy. I'm having to do the same and am experiencing much the same results you have had here; they will not receive correction.
The Mid Acts/ hyperdispensationalists stir up such controversy by using Scripture against the Scripture. It's a Hegelian Dialectic at work: create a PROBLEM [find a controversy to exploit] -> cause a REACTION [Paul disagrees with Peter, James & Jesus] -> present the SOLUTION [butcher the book to arrive at Paul only-ism and antinomianism].
This doctrine is a total mind game and those who promote this doctrine are proud and blinded. The longer these people persist in false doctrine the duller the ear becomes to the truth of Scripture, less love for the truth of God.

I find a link between hyper-grace and hyper-dispensationalism where these folks define faith in Christ by the things one does not have to do! It is a demonic inversion of the truth. A ticket to heaven that requires nothing from us; no acknowledgement of the new creation, no walking after the Spirit, no pursuit of holiness. I was once staggered with the fact that the Holy Spirit seems unable to convict these but then I read in Hebrews 12 that if the Father isn't chastising such a one, then perhaps they are not sons after all. I am beginning to come to the conclusion these might not have the Holy Spirit. :/
The astounding pride, arrogance and disrespect for others is rotten fruit.

Many say this is not a 'salvation issue' but I disagree; Pauline dispensationalist/MAD/hyper, while on the surface may seem benign, the doctrine contorts Scripture to such a degree that it presents a God who is incompetent to save, who lacks foreknowledge and is ambiguous toward sin. This doctrine is spreading like wildfire in the Church today, it's alarming! If I had to design a doctrine that would cause apostasy within the Church THIS would be it. It's that diabolical.

Anonymous said...

The problem I have with those who believe in lordship Salvation is when they put up a straw man argument to say that those who don't believe in lordship Salvation believe that no change happens at all to the believer once they get saved which is a lie plenty of change happened to the believer once they got saved one they became a new creature they were circumsized baptized Justified sanctified sealed by God redeemed all done by the spirit of God and in the name of Jesus Christ. all these are changes that took place the moment a person recognized they were a sinner and put their trust in Jesus death on the cross and Resurrection from the dead and not their own good works to save them from sin and death what we don't believe is that a outward change will or has to occur for this inward change to be genuine an outward change will only occur if the believer out of his own free will chooses to put on the new man and walk in the spirit as Paul tells us to do in Galatians 5:16,25 if they choose not to put on the new man and and choose to not walk in the spirit there will be no outward change that still does not negate them being changed inwardly by God which didn't require us to outwardly change for that to happen lordship salvationists have a problem of mixing salvation with service

Stan said...

I don't mean to sound unkind, but you don't appear to understand how human beings work. Jesus said that what we are inside is reflected outside (Matt 15:18-19). Humans always act on their own natures. If, as you argue, this person is a new creature, they will act ... new. Not because of coercion or even law, but because they're new. Not to gain or maintain salvation, but because they're new.

The problem I have with those who deny the need to submit to Christ to be saved is the fundamental failure to believe Scripture. "No," they say, "you don't need to place your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. You only need to believe in Jesus." (Acts 16:31) They deny Paul's words (Rom 10:9). And think they're being "Pauline".

Anonymous said...

I don't mean to be unkind to you but you need to realize that the believer still has Free Will and can choose to continue to sin and not change their lifestyle and live according to the flesh the Corinthians were doing that 2 Corinthians 12:21 is one example Paul clearly said they were still living like they were unsaved continuing to practice their sexual sins jealousy Strife Etc but he still said that they were washed Justified Sanctified and saved by God because of trusting in Jesus and his death on the cross and Resurrection from the dead alone for their salvation and not their own good works 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 2 Timothy 1:9 and because of continuing to live like they were unsaved they were in danger of not gaining Eternal Rewards at the judgement seat of Christ they were not in danger of proving they were never saved to begin with like you perseverance of the Saints lying calvinist teach 1st Corinthians 3:3 for you are still of the flesh for while there is jealousy and strife among you are you not of the flesh are you not walking like unsaved people 1st Corinthians 6:11 and such were some of you but you were washed but you were made holy but you were declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 3:14 if anyone's work that he has built on it remains he will receive a reward 1 Corinthians 3:15 if anyone's work is burned he will suffer loss but he himself will be saved but it will be like escaping through a fire this shows it's possible to still live like your unsaved and you're still washed made holy and declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God but you lose your rewards if you don't stop living like your unsaved.submitting to the lordship of Christ is not a requirement for salvation it's a requirement for service according to Romans 12:1to gain Eternal rewards and to reign in heaven as Galatians 6:9 Colossians 3:23-24 2 Timothy 2:12 teaches and placing your faith in Jesus Christ is not the same thing as submitting to him in service the problem with you is you like mixing the two together making them one and the same when they're not I believe a Believer has to purpose in their mind to not Walk in the flesh but walk in the spirit otherwise no outward change is going to occur God does not change the persons lifestyle against their will and answer me this why does Paul say in Galatians 5:25 for the Believers to not just live in the spirit but walk in the spirit according to you if you're saved you will live but not only live but walk in the spirit if you are truly saved no where in scripture does it say but you can believe what you want I'll stick with the plan reading of scripture

Stan said...

Thanks for the sarcasm. Kindness is not your concern.

Just for clarification (in case others are as confused as you), 1) Scripture teaches that we must place our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Scripture, not me. 2) No Bible-believing Christian argues for perfectionism. No Christian is perfect in this life. All sin, including believers. A "changed life" doesn't mean "changed to perfection in this life." The suggestion that a changed person produces a changed life doesn't require that a changed person produces perfection. 3) The argument that the saved will be sanctified and have a decrease in sin by nature isn't a philosophical or anti-Scriptural argument. It comes from the pages of Scripture (Eph 2:8-10; Php 2:12-13; 2 Cor 5:17; Gal 5:22-23; 1 John 3:9; etc.). (See also Paul's view on Christians and works.) 4) Works do not save. Not ifs, ands, or buts. No question. When Scripture says our works will show what we believe, it does not mean our works save us in any way.

And since all of my arguments are from Scripture, your accusation that I'm not reading Scripture isn't mistaken; it's a lie. Since you wrote it, it's libel. In biblical terms, it's "false witness." In human terms, it's unfriendly. Thus, you won't be back.

Anonymous said...

I'm not confused at all you're the one that's confused mixing salvation and service together with each other and I'm not arguing that a person who is saved and Sanctified will not decrease in sin and increase in holiness my point is that will not happen unless they choose to walk in the spirit and let God control their life out of their own free will. they can still make the choice not to do so you seem to be saying that it's going to happen and that the believer is not going to choose to do otherwise and that if God's correction from his word or another believer will not cause them to change they can't suppress the spirit because if they do it'll prove they don't really have the spirit if they choose out of their free will to suppress it and not walk in it and if that's what you believe that's a lie. A person is not required to decrease in sin (the breaking of God's law) or increase in Holiness for their faith to be genuine that was true for Israel under the law according to their Old and New Covenant relationship with God it's not true today for members of the body of Chris who are strictly under a Grace relationship with God Romans 11:6,11 and not a covenant relationship with him which required you to demonstrate your faith was real by your works even though the works did not save you they just proved your faith was genuine Jeremiah 31:31-34 Hebrews 8:8-9 make it clear the covenants were only made with Israel not members of the body of Christ if you want to put yourself under a covenant relationship with God which requires you to demonstrate your faith is Real by your works Be by all means go ahead I'm not Paul makes it clear that members of the body of Christ who put their faith in Jesus and his death on the cross and Resurrection from the dead is enough to be saved without having to demonstrate it's real by their works Romans 4:5 ect

Stan said...

I make my points by offering you Scripture. You make your points by ignoring my points and my Scripture. You produce a contradiction. You fail to do what Paul calls "handling the Word of truth rightly" (2 Tim 2:15). Let me know when you learn how to remedy that.

Anonymous said...

I'm only going to give you one example that shows that you're placing yourself under the law to be saved if you ignore dispensationalism and that's Matthew 6:14-15 under the law and according to Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus said israel not members of the body of Christ had to forgive others there sins in order for theirs to be forgiven and receive salvation when he returns at the second coming Jeremiah 31:31-34 acts 3:19 1st Peter 1:5,10 Hebrews 8:8-10 agrees with that as well. that's not the case today under the dispensation of grace Romans 11:6 Paul says as a result of God forgiving you the moment you trusted the gospel of Grace Ephesians 1:13 you should forgive others when they sin against you and want forgiveness Ephesians 4:32 he doesn't say in that verse that if you don't you won't be forgiven like jesus said in Matthew 6:14-15 since you already are that would contradict Ephesians 4:30 which says we're clearly sealed by God Spirit until the day of our Redemption nowhere in that entire chapter does Paul condition that upon forgiving others like Jesus said for Israel under the law that's one example of how God changed from operating under the law to operating under Grace today but you'll probably mix the two together and believe that you have to forgive others to have your sins forgiven like Israel had to under the law we should under grace but if we're not faithful in doing that it doesn't affect our salvation only our Rewards 2 Timothy 2:11-13 if you want to put yourself back under the law then go ahead put yourself under the law you're going to die and cease to exist forever in the Lake of Fire because of that but that's your choice. you ignore the scriptures I gave you you ignored Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-10 which clearly said God only made a covenant with Israel and will bring them their salvation and forgiveness at the second coming.all members of the body of Christ have salvation and forgiveness of all their sins now as a present possession and we don't have to wait till the second coming for that to happen according to Romans 3:21-28 Romans 5:9-11 1st Corinthians 1:18 Colossians 1:13 Colossians 2:13 Colossians 3:13 2 Timothy 1:9

Stan said...

Okay. I got it. I understand. I said, "You produce a contradiction" and you're agreeing. You're okay with that. You don't feel a need to have God's Word as a consistent message because you believe that the entire Old Testament, the Gospels + Acts, Hebrews, James, Peter, John, Jude, and Jesus were all wrong as soon as Paul came on the scene. That would certainly require a contradiction. I see where you're coming from. But since I see no contradiction in Scripture as God's Word and you're happy with the vast majority of it being in contradiction with itself, we're clearly coming from different positions and cannot possibly come to an amicable solution.

Since I do not place myself under the law and I do not believe in "saved by works" and I do not suggest that works save, I'm going to have to ask you to stop saying I do. Since you can't stop, I'm going to have to ask you to stop commenting here further.

Stan said...

As I said, anonymous, since you can't stop making false accusations, I can't continue a discussion with you. Let me just say that your comments was all lies about me and my beliefs and the beliefs of all of Christendom prior to the mid-19th century. Your "mid-Acts dispensationalism" is a new thing, not historical, biblical Christianity or even classical dispensationalism.

Anonymous said...

Stan, I'm in agreement with you...
Here's a couple of questions I have after dredging through the last several YEARS of comments.

1. If Pauline Dispensationalists (PDs) really believed that salvation was by belief in Christ's works alone and nothing else was needed - and, indeed, nothing else could take away from that, how can they repeatedly assert that you're not saved?
If you believe in Christ, then nothing else you believe, say, do -- or don't believe, say, or do matters. It's self-contradictory to say that salvation is belief in Jesus alone regardless of anything after and then say that you're wrong because of your beliefs of what happens after. A self-contradictory belief is an automatic turn-off for me.

2. As my (limited) understanding goes, PDs would hold to the idea of the gospel as presented in 1 Corinthians 15: "I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received..." If this is so... (I hesitate to ask this...), Do they overlook that there is a possibility that they have "believed in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:2)? The Greek here indicating a belief that is empty.
And, what would this vain belief look like? I think they would agree with the beginning of verse 10: "by the grace of God I am what I am" but wonder what they do with the end of the verse: "and his grace toward me was NOT in vain. On the contrary, I WORKED harder than any of them, though it was NOT I, but the GRACE of God that that is with me."
This non-empty grace sure sounds like it produces (not is caused by) some effects.
It appears that Paul believes a non-empty faith in Jesus produces a non-empty grace that at least produces (though not caused by) some works.

3. Romans 8 holds some sticky concepts like foreknowledge and predestination. But, personal beliefs on those notwithstanding, Romans 8:29 explicitly says that God's purpose in salvation is that believers would"be conformed to the image of his Son..." Romans 8:30 then indicates that God accomplishes what he purposes - at the very least when believers are "glorified."
Perhaps PDs would argue that this conforming to be like Jesus doesn't have to happen in this life. Maybe one could argue that being glorified (conformed to the likeness of Jesus) happens for believers in heaven regardless of this life. (Ignoring the process of sanctification because it isn't explicitly listed here.) My question is: Why would someone believe in Jesus if it means God is going to make you into something you never wanted to be in this life?
And, if the argument is returned, "No one said PDs don't want to be conformed to the image of Jesus in this life...", then why not operate in the power of the Spirit and grace of God to try to do so (as Scripture indicates we should)?
Either way, what's the point of avoiding what God is clearly purposed to do in one's life? Unless, of course, you don't really want God...

Thoughts?

(I assume at this point, that some PDs may be reading along. I am wistfully hoping that you might respond with actual engagement of these points without straw-men, slander, or belittling.)

Stan said...

Well, thoughts from me would be I agree. You're not asking me.

Anonymous said...

Those who Advocate turning from sin for salvation are advocating law keeping for salvation 1st John 3:4 makes it clear that when you sin against God it means the same thing to break his law so when you Advocate turning from sin for salvation you're advocating law keeping for salvation whether you want to admit it or not you're going to have to redefine the definition of sin which means to break God's law in order to preach that turning from sin is salvation by grace through faith alone and that it is not salvation by works which is what turning from sin is salvation by faith plus works 1st John 3:4 everyone who sins breaks God's law because sin is the same thing as breaking God's law. Lordship salvation has been refuted by John himself

Stan said...

Those who advocate that Christ can save and make all things new with absolutely no effect on the recipient are advocating for a dead faith. It is abundantly clear that you don't know what I'm saying. There is nothing -- nothing -- not one single solitary thing -- in my theology or my statements here that require, suggest, or hint at turning from sin for salvation. I'm simply pointing out how Scripture (Paul included) claims that those who are in Christ are new creatures. Those who claim otherwise do so against God's Word.

Anonymous said...

then you would have to agree with the Bible that a person who has put their trust in Jesus Christ and his death burial and Resurrection alone to make them right with God and save them from his wrath to come without adding any good works or Law keeping of their own to it are a new creature even if they never do any Works in return since they don't have to do any good works or law keeping in return to get eternal life as a free gift otherwise it's not free and God will not change his mind and will not take back the gift of eternal life that he has chosen and promised to give as Romans 4:6 Romans 11:29 and 1 Corinthians 1:9 teaches Romans 4:6 King David says the same thing he tells us how blessed people are when God makes them right with himself they are blessed because they don't have to do anything in return Romans 11:29 God does not take back his gifts he does not change his mind about those he has chosen 1st Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful he has chosen you to share life with his son Jesus Christ Our Lord. Now do you agree with Paul and David here that a Christian who is saved is a new creature even if they never do any Works in return otherwise I would have to say that you are not saved and your preaching Works salvation and I'm not saying this in a mean or condescending way I'm actually trying to have a friendly discussion with you you have a blessed day also i recommend you checking out an article by justin Johnson at GraceAmbassadors.Com called Works never saved anyone

Stan said...

No, I'd have to agree with the Bible that the the person that puts their trust in Christ is a new creature (2 Cor 5:17), born of God, incapable of making a practice of sin (1 John 3:9), not for salvation but because of it. I'd have to agree with Paul that we are saved by faith apart from works for good works (Eph 2:8-10). Why is that so hard to grasp for you (plural)? A fire is not a fire because it has smoke, but a fire does produce smoke. A fruit is not a fruit because it has nutrition for humans, but it certainly does have nutrition for humans because it is a fruit. Is cause and effect so elusive?

Anonymous said...

A Lost Sinner who has put their trust in Jesus Christ and his death burial and Resurrection alone to make them right with God and save them from his wrath to come is saved and is a new creature and has eternal life as a free gift even if they never do any good works or law keeping(not practing breaking God's Law)in return 1st Corinthians 15:1-4 2 Corinthians 5 17 Romans 3:21-28 Romans 4:4-6 Romans 11:6 Ephesians 2:8-9 Ephesians 4:30 Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 Galatians 2:16 makes that clear. after they are saved they should do good works and they should stop practicing sin(breaking God's Law 1st John 3:4) to gain Eternal rewards and to reign in heaven with Jesus as Romans 6:4 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Galatians 6:9 Colossians 3:23-24 and 2 Timothy 2:12 teaches will happen if you do that but they don't have to do that in return at all after they are saved to get the free gift of eternal life and 1st John 3:9 is not written to Christians in the dispensation of Grace it is written to the believing little flock of Israel under the law and under their new covenant relationship with God in the time of Jacob's trouble Jeremiah 31:31-34 which demanded Works in order to prove and show their faith was real 1st Peter 1:7 James 2:26 that is not the case today in the dispensation of Grace since we're not under the law or under a Old or New Covenant relationship with God like Israel is Romans 4:5 Romans 6:14 Romans 11:6 we have unlike Israel a present possession of Salvation that cant be lost and does not require us to prove our faith is Real by our works at any point in time to receive eternal life Romans 11:29 Israel they have to wait till the second coming to receive their salvation and forgiveness of all their sins as 1st Peter 1:5 and 1st Peter 1:13 teaches 1st Peter 1:5 and 1st Peter 1:13 teaches Israel salvation will be recieved and completed at the second coming that clearly contradicts Colossians 1:13 and Colossians 2:10 which say we members of the body of Christ are saved and complete and have salvation and the Forgiveness of all our sins right now forever Romans 5:9-11 Hebrews 10:10 and we don't have to wait until the second coming to receive our salvation and the Forgiveness of our sins Colossians 1:13 Colossians 2:10,13 unlike Israel who does before their perfection salvation and forgiveness of all their sins will come according to acts 3:19 Romans 11:26-27James 2:4 1st Peter 1:5 1st Peter 1:7 1st Peter 1:13.also under the law and under Israel's New Covenant relationship with God you were considered a child of Disobedience and child of the devil if you were guilty of practicing breaking God's Law and by the way by not practicing law breaking you are practicing law keeping because that is what sin is the breaking of God's law the opposite of that would be to not practice breaking it. now under grace that's not the case since where sin abounds God's grace abounds even more and as Romans 5:20 Romans 11:29 and 1st Corinthians 1:9 and 2nd Timothy 2:13 makes clear God's not going to take back his free gift of eternal life from those who are members of the body of Christ even if you become faithless towards him he is still going to remain faithful and give you the gift of eternal life you will lose your Eternal rewards and be denied reigning in heaven because of that but you are still saved otherwise he's a liar and did not truly offer eternal life is a free gift. my prayer for you is that you'll come to see the truth of this you have a good and a blessed day stan

Stan said...

Let me see if I understand you correctly (because you have not yet understood me correctly). You are saying that a person whom Christ saves by His grace alone is new in the sense of nothing more than he is saved. No change in heart. No change in mind. No change in will. No change in attitude. No change ... at all. Just a change of status, unsaved to saved. The salvation that Christ brings with its accompanying indwelling of the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of producing NOTHING AT ALL in the one He saves and indwells. Is that what you are claiming? In the words of Hulk, "Puny God."

Anonymous said...

I believe The one whom Christ saves is new in the sense that he is gone from the status of unsaved to saved which accompanied a change in their mind and heart and will with the Sealing and indwelling of the Holy Spirit who sells the believer until the day of their Redemption He is perfectly capable of producing the fruits of the spirit and a changed life in The Believer if the believer chooses to allow the spirit to do that through them they still have free will and they can still choose to quench the spirit and even if they quench the spirit that is not an indication that they don't have the spirit they have just decided to quench it and live for themselves or in the flesh the fornicator in 1Corinthians and the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 12:21 who were still practicing sexual sins are examples of this the fornicator repented of his fornication by allowing the spirit to live through him. the Believers in 2 Corinthians 12:21 did not the fornicator who repented will gain Eternal rewards and get to reign in heaven because they gave up their fornication the Corinthians who did not give up their sexual sins will lose their Eternal rewards and be denied reigning in heaven because of that but they are still saved as 1st Corinthians 3:15 2 Timothy 2:12 Ephesians 4:30 teaches versus that you ignore and claim don't teach that.you seem to be claiming that only the people who have a radical change of life after changing their mind and believing the gospel are the only ones who have saving faith and that is just a lie from the Devil

Anonymous said...

And I do understand you correctly you believe that those who make a practice of breaking God's Law are not born again or Saved that was true for Israel under the law and under their Covenant relationship with God it's not true for members under the body of Christ in this dispensation of Grace sin means to break God's as 1st John 3:4 says that's all it means you are advocating a person has to stop practicing the breaking of God's law and order to truly be born again or saved you are advocating law keeping for salvation you just can't see that because you've been blinded by Satan

Stan said...

And we're back to Paul contradicting Paul, the point I have made all along as the problem of "Pauline Dispensationalism."

Stan said...

(See Paul on Works.)

Anonymous said...

Please Stan, could you answer this for me? Can a prisoner on death row be saved on the day of execution by faith in the death and resurrection of Christ? Because there will no opportunity to live and produce the good works which you maintain are supposed to validate the new nature of a saved person.

Stan said...

Absolutely!! The thief on the cross was! No good works produce salvation. Salvation produces good works. Of course, the longer you're in relationship with Christ, the more He produces. A short relationship (like your prisoner example) produces less (none). It's not cause; it's effect.

Anonymous said...

Ook?? So when the good works are not yet evident, as you rightly said is based on one's relationship with Christ, is the person still saved or not?

Stan said...

Works don't save. Not the question. The question is can one who is born of God (the cause) able to maintain a practice of sin (practice is a long-term, no repentance thing)? John says, "No."

I should make it abundantly clear, however, that I don't get to say who is and is not saved. I suspect I should also make it clear that I do not believe that one who is born of God can be ... unborn.

Anonymous said...

You see therein lies the problem with your argument as you stated "that I don't get to say who is and is not saved". This means a person cannot be fully assured of salvation while still alive because there is a level of sinlessness to be attained as validation of salvation. Salvation being without works means exactly that. No works are required: neither to attain nor to validate it afterwards. Now granted the Spirit works to change a saved person, that doesn't make the person a robot. A saved person still has a will and could make choices to commit sins. That is what Paul in Ephesians refers to as quenching the Spirit. A saved person is sealed at the moment of salvation by the Spirit. What happens afterwards is service which could be good or bad based on how much the person submits their will to the always and forever indwelling Spirit.

Moreover, the assurance of salvation we have is not based on our ability to stop the practice of sin, but on the faith that Christ's death for our sins and His resurrection is 100% what saves us. No works are required whether to be saved or afterwards for proof of salvation.

Stan said...

You've misunderstood me. I didn't say they can't know. I said I can't say. I don't know their heart. I don't know their actual relationship with Christ. But if a person is claiming a living relationship with Christ -- born of God -- and making an unrelenting practice of sin, I feel it is kind and responsible and loving to point out that they are acting in opposition to Scripture and maybe THEY need to look into it. There ARE people who are deceived about their relationship with Christ.

Anonymous said...

I don't deny the fact that a saved person should endeavour to live according to the scriptures and shouldn't make a practice of sin in their relationship with Christ. But salvation as far as I know is not a relationship. It is 100% by grace through faith that Christ died for our sins and resurrected. As long as the person can declare their faith in this, that is all the proof that they are saved. A life devoid of the practice of sin does not prove or disprove salvation.

As you rightly said you can't know people's hearts, the only proof of salvation is if a person can communicate the fact that salvation is 100% by the faith that Christ died for their sins and resurrected.

Stan said...

Look, you've maintained this position forever. I get it. You disagree with John (1 John 3:9). You believe that Jesus taught a different gospel (which Paul would declare anathema). You believe that human beings are sovereign over their own salvation. By "once saved always saved" you mean "You can declare faith in Christ and, by that mere declaration, be rightly classified as saved." A life spent in the practice of sin doesn't mean you don't have Christ in you. It is absolutely possible (nay, certain for many) that you can be spiritually raised from the dead, declared forgiven, filled with Christ's righteousness, be made new, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, empowered by God, and never ever for an entire lifetime show any fruit of such an event at all.

Scripture (and, thus, God) disagrees.

Anonymous said...

Point of correction please. I didn't say "You can declare faith in Christ and, by that mere declaration, be rightly classified as saved." It's not just a mere declaration of faith in Christ.

This is what I said."If a person can communicate the fact that salvation is 100% by the FAITH that CHRIST DIED FOR THEIR SINS AND RESURRECTED".

It's not just faith in Christ. It's faith that CHRIST DIED FOR THEIR SINS AND RESURRECTED. I can't stress that enough. That's the gospel Paul refers to in Romans as the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES. That's what the Bible says.

Please don't confuse that with a saved person's service afterwards which could be good or bad depending on the degree of submission of their will to the Spirit.



Stan said...

I'm talking about a genuine, life-changing, "born again" salvation and you're talking about semantics? Communicate the right facts and you're in without any change of life, nature, character, power, nothing. "No, Paul, all things do not become new." You go with that. I'm done. You offer no reason I should discard most of Scripture to agree with you and no reason that all of Church history has been wrong on this and no reason why I should even be a Christian since you offer such a puny salvation. We're finished. Go bother someone else.

Todd said...

This is a comment is response to a comment dated 7/30/2016 7:47 AM Really? Then you know little of Pauline Dispensationalism. They believe that the Church is saved by grace in this “dispensation,” but that after this dispensation ends, God will return to the dispensation of law and Israel will be saved by their works. My argument is that no one can be saved without being IN CHRIST by faith. Being in Christ implies being part of His Body, which is the Church. After the Church, the Body of Christ, is raptured, God will return to dealing with Israel under the law, WITHOUT Israel being in Christ or part of His Body. THAT is the heresy. Dispensationalist CLAIM that they believe in salvation by grace through faith, but their belief that Israel will suffer through God’s wrath in the tribulation tells a different story. If Jesus suffered the wrath of God in our place on the cross, then their belief by implication means that He did not suffer for Israel. Israel must suffer and be punished for her rejection of Christ. THAT is what Dispensationalist belief tis the purpose of the tribulation, and that that punishment and suffering will finally wake them up. I call it HERESY because it teaches two gospels, one for the Church and one for Israel.
As for you not comprehending how the ark can be Christ AND the saints, it’s not that difficult to understand. SAME It is the same thing as saying that the Temple of God is both Christ and the saints. Christ is the true Temple, and we are Living Stones that make up that Temple. Not that difficult We are THE BODY of Christ. We are united to Him by His Spirit. You clearly don’t understand Dispensationalism as clearly as you think. The Pretrib rapture is based on Dispensationalism. And according to Pretrib Dispensationalist, the so-called tribulation saints are NOT part of the Body of Christ. They are NOT saved from God’s wrath. They suffer along with Israel, because they believed too late. My thinking is not muddled at all. I was an ardent Dispensationalist who believed in a Pretrib rapture for almost 40 years, so I know a little about it. Although there are sever different kinds of Dispensationalists, and that they all CLAIM to teach salvation by faith, the ramifications and outworking of their system betrays them.
And I’m confused at why you think you have a radically different view. I first mentioned the salvation has always been by grace through faith. I mentioned Ephesians and Hebrews 11 and 12. Then I mentioned our inability to obey God’s law and the results of faith, which is our being united with Christ in His death and resurrection by the Spirit. I mentioned the purpose of the law, which was to lead us to Christ. I mentioned that Jesus is the Ark and we are the gopher wood plank, just as Christ is the Temple and we are the Living Stones in the Temple. I mentioned that we are a new creation, saved from the wrath of God. I’m not sure what it is you disagree with, other than you think that Dispensationalists consistently teach salvation by grace through faith. They don’t, despite their claim. All of the above things that the Church is in Christ, Israel is NOT. They are a separate body altogether, saved in a different way altogether, and never to be joined into one new man.
So no, my comment was not off topic, because there is really very little difference between each of the forms of Dispensationalism, other than Progressive Dispensationalism, which many classical and Pauline Dispensationalists consider heresy (because they aren’t rightly dividing the Word.)