"What?" you say. "In what possible sense is Vietnam related to the Church?!" I can even detect a little indignation in your question. So let's examine the idea for a moment. There is a lot that can be said about that conflict, but the most obvious one is ... we lost. It was the first major conflict that the American military entered and lost. I know, I know, there are those who argue, "We didn't lose!", but we withdrew and South Vietnam fell and we failed to meet our objective, so that's a "lose". The question, though, is why?
There are two basic reasons that America lost in South Vietnam. Those reasons do not include a lack of ability, a lack of resources, a lack of firepower, a lack of skill or experience, or any such thing. No, it was something else. The first reason is a failure to comprehend the enemy. While the North Vietnamese fought to free their southern brethren, Americans fought to defend freedom, some vague concept never really made clear. The battle was against "the domino effect", the belief that one nation falling to communism would cause others to go with it. That's a vague concept for soldiers to fight for in the field. The Viet Cong were able to move into the midst of the Americans, infiltrating, sabotaging, surprising. Devoted Vietnamese (devoted to nationalism) would give a child a grenade and send them into the midst of American soldiers bringing a horribly efficient means of killing groups of men. While the American military thought they were fighting a poorly equipped, poorly organized, rag-tag enemy, it turned out they were devastatingly well organized and capable. The problem, then, was an underestimation of the enemy, allowing them to end up in our midst.
The second problem was the biggest. It showed itself in a couple of ways. On one hand, the military leadership fought a "limited war". Targets were selected and ignored. Choices were made for political reasons as much as military reasons. Strategic targets were banned while nonsense targets were hit. Avoiding civilian casualties was a big priority, even if it meant leaving alone some of the most important targets of all. The military leadership, then, tied the hands of their own forces to prosecute the war. The leadership, however, was itself bound by the American government and its people. While the hundreds of thousands of deaths in World War II were "tragic but necessary", any death in Vietnam was too much. The American politicians and American people lacked the will to carry out this war. Part of this was because of the limitations on the military. In Korea Allied forces pushed all the way to China's border before being pushed back, but in South Vietnam no such initiative was allowed. It was a long, cold, "stand your ground" war with no sense of purpose, no sense of success, and no hope for a positive outcome. This second problem, then, was the lack of will both on the part of the military and on the part of Americans. Nothing will lose a war faster than that.
Okay, so how does any of this relate to the Church? First, the Bible is quite clear that we are not at peace. We are at war. Paul's famous passage on "the armor of God" isn't vague.
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm" (Eph 6:10-13).We are at war. It's not against flesh and blood. It's against spiritual forces of wickedness. Of that we should be certain. But ... we're not, it seems. In so much of today's church, we're not really at war at all. The enemy is often political correctness or the fear of offending people with the Gospel. We want to entertain rather than convict. We don't want to be judgmental or intolerant. And we give ground in areas we can't afford to surrender because, well, we have underestimated the enemy. So they are able to slip into our very inner circle. They hang a badge on their uniform -- "Christian" -- and if you even question it you're being mean. How dare you question another's salvation?!! That's just wrong! And they sit in our midst and blow us apart from within because we don't even know the difference between the enemy and an ally.
Worse, much of the church today lacks the will to fight. We surrendered our political voice in the 1950's with the 501(c)(3) concept when the government bought our silence. But, truthfully, political silence is small compared to the unwillingness so many have today on matters of much more importance. Now it's considered bad form to call sin sin. People don't want to hear lengthy sermons on the Bible, so we are trying to make preaching "more applicable", "more relevant". Oh, and by all means keep it short. Look, in fact, if we can leave off the term "sin" from our sharing of the Gospel and set aside any real hard work like, you know, discipleship or the like, it will be so much easier to get people in ... won't it? We lack the will to fight.
America was crippled because it fought a defensive war with no apparent victory in sight. We are commanded as believers to "stand firm", and our victory, while sure, isn't apparent either. Many lack the will to stand firm and many don't even recognize the enemy, his tactics, or how dangerous he really is. You know, I thought my friend was on a tangent with his "Was Vietnam somehow a prophecy about the Church?" question, but I can begin to see where he was going with that ... and it's not pretty.
22 comments:
Stan,
Thanks for the reminder. I think a good strong dose of Spurgeon or Edwards sermon reading is healthy for a fresh reminder of the nature of sin and why we should not argue with but fight against wickedness and evil.
Hard to get past your reasoning of Vietnam war…
America fought to defend freedom?
Seriously? More like supporting a corrupt puppet regime against a nationalistic movement that was pitted against not only the Americans, but the French before and the Chinese.
Limited war?
Really? 2M-5M+ civilians (in a small country of 40-50M at the time) killed by U.S. firepower, who knows how many affected by bombs set off later and napalm… …My Lai? Dropping several times the tonnage of bombs that were dropped by both sides in World War II…?
"Under the search-and-destroy strategy imposed by U.S. General William Westmoreland, capturing enemy terrain was not the primary goal of combat; instead, the body count was the main measure of success. "The mission," Belknap says bluntly, "was simply to kill people.""
Wow. Good post, Stan. Thank you.
Naum,
Typical liberal bias. Thanks for the confirmation. So, let's see if I understand you correctly. America didn't have to go to war and commit all those troops and cost, but, hey, we have an opportunity to support a puppet regime against a nationalistic movement! Oooo, let's go!
Did civilians die? Of course. But the military wasn't allowed to 1) advance against the enemy (into North Vietnam) or 2) bomb targets in the north that would have been strategic targets.
And thanks for the reference to My Lai. Did bad people do bad things? Yes. Therefore, if any bad person does a bad thing, the entire process is evil. Got it. America's self-defense in the Pacific was evil in WWII. Any time the military acts it will likely encounter some bad things done by bad people, so all military acts are evil. Nice logic.
But you cleared everything up with your last argument. The only reason we really went to Vietnam was to kill as many people (an intentionally generalized term) as we could. Nice.
I've seen you offer a lot of reasons to dislike America in general and American Christians in particular. Since you dislike this country so much, why do you stay?
This recent article posted at AmericanThinker.com came immediately to mind when I began to read this post. I haven't actually read the whole post and feel it quite likely that the point of it won't be addressed or diminished by this article. Yet, the idea that we "lost" the Viet Nam War does grate a bit. I think most of us have been pretty thoroughly corrupted by media, movies and other assorted less than truthful re-tellings of that sad time. So forgive me for not focussing more on the point of the post, which I'll get to reviewing sooner rather than later, but too many people died to not frame the war in it's proper context. I thought it especially important to post it considering Naum's sorry "American sucks" comments. I'm growing quite weary of such attitudes.
@Stan,
Wow, that's quite a leap. From honest criticism of flawed policy to "dislike America and American Christians".
Not "liberal bias" — it's taken straight from the man that directed a good part of the war — Robert McNamara — see his commentary in Fog of War, where he admits N. Vietnamese were indeed freedom fighters battling for their country against French, Chinese, U.S, etc.…
U.S "interests" have not always coincided with freedom and democracy, despite the boiler plate propaganda. There's been good and bad, even within that Asian conflict, not all the motive can be attributed to evil, but on the whole, a tragic, mistaken war carried out with great cost in lives. But the munition makers all made out madly — Satan, all the while grinning, holding up a banner that "supports ALL the troops".
The Vietnamese people would find your categorization of "limited" quite odd and morose, given the tonnage of bombs dropped on their land.
Where would you like to send me? :)
Regarding the topic (now that I've read the whole post), I have to agree that there is indeed a war going on. I often debate against those who seem unwilling to call evil by its name, to treat sinful behavior as if it is somehow no longer sinful. I hear sermons that seem so vague and meaningless, not really teaching anything, not really making any solid point about anything substantial.
At the same time, when I attempt to discuss issues like morality, I'm hit with relativism, that morality is subjective.
What's most difficult is determining if my opponents are sincere in their beliefs, or if they are putting it all on so as to ease their own guilt regarding their positions on right vs wrong. I think for some, the moral decline has matasticized (sp) so that they don't even realize how far gone they are.
Naum: "Wow, that's quite a leap. From honest criticism of flawed policy to "dislike America and American Christians". "
Just to be clear (as opposed to being argumentative), yes, it would be quite a leap ... if it was from a single comment. But it was only a small step from every comment you've ever made regarding America, the Church, and their policies and beliefs. I know there is a lot you don't like about your country and the Church. I don't know a single thing you do like. Thus the "leap".
Marshall,
As I said in the post, I call it a "loss" because we failed to secure our objectives. History tells us that the primary reason we failed to secure our objectives was not the military. I read several accounts, for instance, that told that the famous Tet Offensive was a serious loss to the North Vietnamese ... until Walter Cronkite went on the air and told the world we had lost that battle. The media, the politicians, the public sentiment, all these produced the defeat that the military (and the South Vietnamese) shouldn't have suffered. And, as the article you referenced pointed out, the things we fought against (and lost) did happen. Many died at the hands of the victors. Communism did spread (the "domino effect"). Despite the naysayers who assure us that the evil Americans had no business there and were only acting out of immoral imperialism, we lost and the things we said we wanted to prevent actually happened.
Marshall is looking for moral clarity, saying...
At the same time, when I attempt to discuss issues like morality, I'm hit with relativism, that morality is subjective.
I suspect you misunderstand. Let me give you an example: The Viet Nam war was morally wrong. We should not have bombed and killed and otherwise harmed the people of North Viet Nam. We entered that war under false pretenses (again, see McNamara's own writings, per Naum) and engaged in wholly immoral behavior while there. The war was objectively wrong.
Nothing subjective in that statement.
Now, were there people involved with the war who were trying to achieve a moral good? I'm quite sure that there were. But they did so (and more importantly, our nation's leaders did so) in a wrong immoral way.
As often as some on the Right suggest that we on the Left are wholly subjective about morality, it seems hard to believe, given how much we take objective stands against some of the Right's positions as morally wrong. Sometimes even quite evil.
The relativism seems to come (in my opinion, for what it's worth) much more from the Right than the Left.
"Killing civilians is WRONG," they say ("well, unless it's US doing the killing..." "Unless the cause is what WE consider Just..." "unless circumstances dictate killing civilians is acceptable..." etc, etc, equivocate, equivocate. Moral relativism, anyone?
One man's subjective opinion about moral objectivity.
Dan Trabue: "Marshall is looking for moral clarity, saying ... I suspect you misunderstand."
Let's not do this here, Dan. This will just get into that unpleasantness that made me stop posting your thoughts in the past.
Here, let me illustrate. You classify war as evil under all conditions ... but if you were in charge you would have a standing army because, well, people want it. You say that abortion is wrong ... but you wouldn't make it unavailable because people want it. That falls under the tree of relativism. "These things are wrong ... not that I actually would act on it."
On the other hand, I find it almost amusing how often I hear people (not you -- don't take this personally) argue that "right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder" (so to speak) while they are taking to task people who believe, say, that homosexual behavior is a sin or abortion is evil. In other words, "Don't try to inflict on others what you deem moral. I have the right to do it right now, but you don't." A fine double standard.
@Stan,
Your take is so flawed and at odds with the people that actually directed the war… …you mentioned bias, but I would recommend you read up from a variety of sources, and not the jingoistic bait you swallow so eagerly…
But see, that's the thing with war — once a nation goes to war, justice and truth are squashed and everything is painted with Manichaean brush. Sometimes, that's not the far from the way it really is; other times the state of affairs is a lot more nuanced than good guys v. bad guys. Now, I know many will say my country is never wrong, whatever it does.
On a deeper level, your analogy fails because a Christian's weapons or "warfare" are quite different than worldly instruments — loving your enemies, blessing them that curse you, compassion, prayer, fasting, etc.… …as opposed to bombs, missiles, guns, drones, etc.…
Dan said:
"Unless the cause is what WE consider Just..."
Actually that's your relatavistic worldview seeping in. IT should be:
"Unles the cause is what IS just...
"
Naum: "Your take is so flawed and at odds with the people that actually directed the war… …you mentioned bias, but I would recommend you read up from a variety of sources, and not the jingoistic bait you swallow so eagerly.."
Interesting approach. I got my information from research from a multitude of sources. And because I presented certain facts (like the concept of "limited war" and "the domino effect"), you accuse me of swallowing "jingoistic bait". How about this? Why don't you explain the reality to us? Apparently America did not go to Vietnam with any good intentions. Apparently it was, what, imperialism? Capitalism (we planned to make a profit)? What? There was no good intention, no "limited war", no fear of any "domino effect". It was purely self serving (and you'll need to tell me what they hoped to gain in doing so because I can't see it). You see, it seems to me that while you think I'm willing to swallow anything positive about America, you're unwilling to think a positive thought about this country. You've never expressed one and, when I asked you for some, you didn't offer a one. So the trick here is to limit sources to what you accept as not flawed or biased ... that is, sources that coincide with your biases. So, please, all I'm asking is that you straighten us all out on what the real intentions were when JFK and President Johnson prosecuted that fight in Vietnam. (Or are you just objecting because, when I characterized why our military lost in Vietnam, I didn't actually explain every nuance of the war there?)
FYI, the definition of "limited war" is "a war in which the belligerents do not seek the total destruction of the enemy". These include by definition Vietnam and Korea. If you don't understand the term, don't argue against it.
It's futile, I know, because your idea of Christianity is whatever you define it to be (because you vehemently reject a biblical approach), but, if you could, please give me some reference as to your version of "a Christian's weapons", because I take mine from Paul's listing which includes armor (truth, righteousness, preparation of the gospel, faith, and salvation) and weaponry (the sword of the Spirit -- the Word of God). Besides that, the point is that we are at war. Sure, the weapons differ. (Paul never said, "Arm yourself with the tank of loving your enemies and take up the M-16 of prayer and fasting.") But the fact that there is a war is the parallel and the fact that the Church is often failing to face that war, to properly understand the enemy, and to stand firm is the problem. (Did you think that I was suggesting that the weapons of spiritual warfare are "bombs, missiles, guns" and so on? You do understand the concept of analogy, don't you? I mean, for instance, when Jesus tells of the story of the farmer throwing seed, He wasn't suggesting that the Word is small round kernels that need to be thrown into the ground. You do get that, right?)
Forgive me, Stan, if this is straying a bit, but the following nonsense just drives me batty:
""Killing civilians is WRONG," they say ("well, unless it's US doing the killing..." "Unless the cause is what WE consider Just..." "unless circumstances dictate killing civilians is acceptable..." etc, etc, equivocate, equivocate. Moral relativism, anyone?"
This is in no way an accurate representation of right-wing sentiment regarding warfare. It is exactly the type of misinterpretation over which Dan would blow a head-gasket if such a straying from accuracy took place regarding his positions. So I'll clarify once more and hopefully better:
Killing civilians is wrong if killing civilians is the aim. That civilians die in wartime is not "wrong", it's "unfortunate" and almost impossible to completely avoid. When the day comes that we can completely eliminate civilian deaths in wars, then any civilian deaths MIGHT be considered "wrong" rather than merley "unfortunate". And when you can guarantee that despots and regimes and even nations won't rise up and make war, then there can be legitimate concern for "their" civilians over our troops and civilians.
OK. Carry on.
OK, U.S. didn't drop a nuclear bomb and kill 300M+ civilians, mostly women and children, like was done in Japan WWII. So I guess it was "limited" in that respect.
Let me switch gears a bit and pose this question for you.
Do you think Christianity is undergoing another major historical change – which make it radical change #6 in the course of history, according to some bible scholars…
1. From a Jewish messianic sect to Paul's message for all (1st 100 years) — There may have been changes in faith before the gospels were written. Many Biblical scholars think there were, and that the synoptic gospels are themselves re-writings of earlier beliefs, which may have been both more varied than and quite different in their Messianic views. The non-canonical writings give some hints of this, but we are limited to guess-work, since there is no hard evidence of earlier beliefs. But we are on firm ground in saying that the Messianic beliefs of the synoptic writers – an immanent restoration of the twelve tribes and of true Torah in Jerusalem, under the kingship of Jesus – were rapidly adjusted in quite basic ways, as generations came and went, and Israel was wiped off the political map.
2. Formation of Christian doctrine — Early church councils (Chalcedon, Nicea, etc.…), …After the writing of the New Testament documents, we see the church continuing to develop its thinking about Jesus and the revelation of God in and through Jesus.…with the aid of concepts that were not characteristic of the New Testament, and that were drawn from Greek philosophy.… …Greek philosophy enabled the church to find a new perspective on those originating events, which would illuminate their significance for world history and the human understanding of the divine.
3. Triumph of Christendom (12th - 14th centuries) — Anselm… …real and profound change from the Greek theology of the first ecumenical councils, and an even greater change from New Testament Christianity… …he increasing importance in the Roman church of ideas of original sin, atonement and the penitential system, and the development of a very exclusive doctrine of salvation through the Catholic Church alone.
4. Reformation
5. Liberal Christianity (19th century) — Liberal Christianity (in Germany first) as a response to the eighteenth century Enlightenment, with its call to subject everything to rational criticism, with its enthusiastic embrace of the new scientific method, and with its adoption of new critical attitudes to past historical records
6. Post-Modern Christianity? — In such a globalised context, Christianity has to be reconceived as one stream of religious life in a wider global pattern… …the role of the church in the world is not to provide a secure path to heaven for a few who will escape the general doom of the world. It is to work, through acts of charity and reconciliation, for the liberation of every human being, and even, so far as it is possible, for the liberation of all created things, from all that frustrates the fulfilment of their God-created capacities.
Naum asked Stan "where would you like to send me?". I've got it...to Dan's! (NOT the Barney Fife Dan)
The two of you, and the 40 other illegals that the other guy wants to send to you (see Stan's previous post), could have some really great conversations about what sucks about America, and then form your own commune somewhere...
I agree with Stan...Naum (and to some extent Dan), it's plain that you have many grievances against America, but not so clear what you do like about it.
Naum: "Do you think Christianity is undergoing another major historical change?"
No. I don't think it was a "change" when Christianity moved from Jewish to worldwide Christianity. Jesus said He had sheep in other places. It was the standard, planned, expected progression. I don't think it was a change when standard Christian doctrine was enumerated. It was a response (just like most of the New Testament) to error. (I can, for instance, trace the doctrine of the Trinity from the Bible through the early Church fathers before the 4th century.) The Reformation in particular was not a radical change, but a radical return. "Liberal Christianity" did not constitute a change to Christianity. It constituted a change of method, perhaps, which resulted in a denial of Christianity. Post-modern Christianity did the same. It is fundamentally incoherent to argue (as post-modernism does) that there is no overarching worldview and no genuine meaning and link Christianity with that position. Further, if the Church has "progressed" to the point that it denies the fundamentals of Christianity, well, it's not Christianity any more, is it? If the "Church" denies the exclusive nature of salvation through Christ in opposition to Jesus's own words, then it what sense is it "Christian? If the "Church" affirms "acts of charity and reconciliation, for the liberation of every human being" in contradiction to the Bible, in what sense is it Christian? No, I would hold that the true Church has ever been in place. Parts have moved. Some have wavered, varied, fallen into heresy. But declaring the heresy as good is not rational nor progress ... nor does it qualify as Christian. Christianity from the start has had to fight off shifts from the truth to error. It continues today. But error is not Christianity.
@Stan,
Thanks for the answer and thoughts…
Though your assessment would be at odds with the bulk of bible scholars and church historians (even limiting the set of these to "born-again" Christians)…
The Reformation is commonly billed as a "radical return" as you describe, but it really wasn't a "return" as much as a "re-thinking"… …the result was a Christianity hitherto never before.
What does "salvation through Christ" truly mean? I ask not to be a smart-ass, but honestly, in open ended dialogue — does it mean I recite a magical sinner's prayer and am instantly granted salvation no matter what other reality. Is it a process? Is it saying the right keywords, believing the right theology? Is it for all? Is it for a select subset of 144K. Is it pre-destined? Etc.… …we as Christians have our belief, which is formed in large part through the culture we live in — where is the line where one pronounces another set "heresy"? And how is dissent managed by fellow believers who do agree that Christ is Lord of their life, but not on these other lesser points?
I read your writings here, and while seemingly I only chime in on the ones I disagree or wish to stir up discussion (suppose I should post when I /agree but that would be so boring ;)), your writings and just about 99.9% of all stuff written in 21st century would be impossible to fathom in a previous age. Not because of metaphors and references to technology and events of the current age, but on a deeper level, it would be utterly impossible for someone in a previous age to see life, the world, human relations in the same way.
Naum: "Though your assessment would be at odds with the bulk of bible scholars and church historians."
You are just absolutely stunning in your thinking. I have had to realign my thinking over the years precisely because of scholars and Church historians who have traced for me the thread of Christianity from beginning to today. Besides, the "bulk of bible scholars" today were schooled on post-modernism and liberalism which denies at its core the possibility that historical and orthodox Christianity could be right. For some reason there is this sublime arrogance that says, "We here some 2000 years after the fact know so much better than all those before us."
The Reformation was based on the Bible (rather than the Church) and had its roots in the writings of earlier Church fathers like Augustine. Returning to the Bible and the Church fathers cannot be considered "a Christianity hitherto never [seen] before".
I have spent a great deal of time reading the authors of days gone by. Spurgeon, Owens, Edwards, Calvin, Luther, Augustine ... there is a great commonality throughout. In fact, if Christianity is from God and Jesus's promise to send the Spirit to "lead you into all truth" was genuine, then it is not possible the Christianity has changed. It may spread. It may flesh out. It may ebb and flow. But if it changes in its fundamental components, then it's just another man-made religion and no one ought to give it a second thought. Pick your poison. It doesn't really matter anyway.
I'd really love to answer your "open ended dialogue" questions, but is there really a point? I'd answer from the Bible. You dismiss the Bible. I'd answer from the early Church fathers and the historical orthodoxy and from believers through the centuries and you'd dismiss it all as "impossible to fathom in a previous age". The simple fact that I'm repeating what Christianity has said in every major era would be irrelevant. It is, in your view, ridiculous 21st century "Christianity", full of fluff and nonsense and not nearly as erudite as your view. So ... why would I do that?
1. Augustine != Bible, many other church fathers took issue with his writings, also, I bet his take of Genesis is 180 degrees apart from you and supporters here…
2. Which Luther writings — the reformed crowd would like to forget "The Jews and Their LIes" where Luther advocates genocide and ethnic cleansing. Also, most bible scholars do not believe it was a "return", but a new change that was billed as a "return", but not really… …no man steps in the same stream twice, for he's not the same man and it's not the same stream…
3. I don't dismiss the Bible at all. Because I don't read it as an "instruction manual" or "constitution" or "list of literal rules", but a grand narrative, a story of how God is rescuing his creation…
4. Calvin was a theocrat that inflicted torture and executions on heretics and those guilty of adultery… …not to to tar all of Calvin and Luther in Manichaean brush, just to acknowledge that things a bit more nuanced and folks have a tendency to see what they want to see and pluck out what they want to prove…
5. It's not that ""We here some 2000 years after the fact know so much better than all those before us." — indeed, in many ways, those before were much brighter in some ways… …but that's not the point — point is, you cannot, in 2010, see the world as somebody in 1513 or 70 AD, just as somebody from that time would be completely befuddled in the 21st century. The cultural lens and frame of reference you apply are of great significance — to not acknowledge that is to embrace darkness.
My point was that what I believe and write is in line with the Bible and centuries of Christianity. You argue that it isn't. My point was that it is historical and orthodox. Your point is that you don't like anyone who ever makes mistakes. Great. You do understand (no, I guess not) that besmirching the character of various individuals does not determine the truth of their claims. Even Hitler (whom we would both agree was evil) said some true things. But it is your modus operandi to simply ignore people you disagree with if you find something you don't like about them. This is classic logical fallacy and doesn't reflect well on your reasoning skills.
By the way, "I don't dismiss the Bible" coupled with "I don't read it as an 'instruction manual'" is a certainly contradictory on the face of it. Further, if it is not God's Word (which you specifically reject), then it is man's opinion and nothing more than, say, the writings of Luther and Calvin (because the authors were rotten people at times).
And while you disagree that you think you're so much brighter 2000 years after the fact, oddly enough you're quite sure that while I cannot "see the world as somebody in 1513 or 70 AD", you've figured it out. It is still arrogance. "Yeah, yeah, they said that there was a hell and Jesus was the only way and all that, but we actually know today that what they meant was ..." and you fill in something entirely different. So when I read it and say, "It says x so I believe x", I'm being naive, but when you read it and say, "It says x so I believe y", you're being scholarly. (For clarity, that "you" throughout this paragraph is plural.)
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