tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post6232437931567439776..comments2024-03-28T13:07:51.025-07:00Comments on Winging It: How Did That Happen?Stanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-7313414986370625022016-02-12T16:53:33.655-07:002016-02-12T16:53:33.655-07:00When one votes for the lesser of two evils, how is...When one votes for the lesser of two evils, how is that working toward a righteous goal? All it is doing is merely slowing the inevitable, not moving toward a better tomorrow, just hoping for a less worse tomorrow. Unless we see a truly electable candidate that believes in conservative moral values and aims to reform this country, nobody is going to be a step in the right direction. That's not because 40-some-odd percent of Americans aren't voting. That's because 60-some-odd present (that's being very conservative) of Americans believe that Christian moral values are wrong. As you keep saying, we are a country "governed" by the people. The people are increasingly morally decaying, so it only stands to reason that the leadership (which is chosen of and by the people) is going to reflect that decay. Unless we have another Awakening through God's mercy, we can expect a continued decline. Some presidents might show the decline, some might even hasten it (though I believe the government is always lagging behind the nation when it comes to the decline), but none in this coming election will make any progress toward reversing the decline. Only God working in the people will accomplish that. We're not going to vote this country into a better tomorrow.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-76338134113409458752016-02-10T17:16:16.529-07:002016-02-10T17:16:16.529-07:00Mind you, I'm not arguing with you here. I'...Mind you, I'm not arguing with you here. I'm not disagreeing or telling you you're wrong on this. <b>But</b>, I have to say that I don't see it. Californians voted Prop 8 in and it had zero affect on views on same-sex mirage. More than 30 states had laws on the books defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman and it had zero effect on views on same-sex mirage. I have <i>repeatedly</i> voted for conservative candidates and it has had no effect on the candidates that are offered.<br /><br />You disagree that a refusal to vote in an election is a statement, but wouldn't it be a statement if people started staying out of the voting booths in numbers because they don't have a candidate they can support? Is that not the same sort of "trend" that you say is an influence?<br /><br />I do have to scratch my head on the Good Samaritan parallel. Do <i>what</i>? In my lifetime of voting I have seen <i>none</i> of my votes directly affect any "mugging victim". Not one. Every election season that comes around offers me <i>less</i> of what I can support, not more. You <i>say</i> that voting is doing something to affect change, but I don't see it.<br /><br />And I'm still not clear on how this is a Christian matter. Again, not saying it isn't. Not arguing it. It's just that I see <i>nothing</i> in Scripture telling us to change our government or change our world. I see Scripture telling us to make disciples and teach obedience and pray, but I cannot find a single New Testament example of a biblical character, up to and including Christ, who lifted a finger in the arena of politics. Why? Rhetorical question. And in all honesty facing the specter of voting for the Democrat's socialist or the Republican's buffoon does not give me the slightest hint that I can vote for one of these to make America a better place.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-76710964170330445072016-02-10T17:01:14.381-07:002016-02-10T17:01:14.381-07:00Stan,
Voting totals influence by indicating tren...Stan, <br /><br />Voting totals influence by indicating trends. I think it's a legitimate notion that some began to support SSM because they didn't want to buck the trend. For others, the trend compelled them to see what was being said. Don't focus on whether or not the influence is great or small, but only know that it exists together with all other actions that serve to influence. That's the point here. Everything that helps to move things in the desired direction. <br /><br />As not voting allows the worst to succeed by lessening the numbers of those who oppose the worst, not voting is akin to supporting the worst. When those others didn't do what the Good Samaritan did, they were guilty of allowing the mugging victim to suffer and possibly die of his injuries. They were complicit in his suffering. Not voting is akin to walking by and letting bad things take their toll. Voting is doing something to effect change for the better.<br /><br />It doesn't matter whether or not our efforts succeed as much as it does that we actually expended effort to do good. We can't know with certainty that our efforts will result in exactly what we hope will occur, and we can't help that our best efforts turn to poop because who we thought was a good candidate or appointee turned out to disappoint. That is no excuse to refuse to vote or to vote for someone with absolutely no possible chance of succeeding. <br /><br />The idea of voting as a duty assumes the possibility that one's single vote is the deciding vote. It doesn't have to be for that assumption to be worthy of holding. But the reality is that one's single vote is not a single vote at all, but one of many, and the more the merrier when the goal is righteous. Sitting out doesn't just add one's vote to the total of those who sit out, but as it does nothing to help a righteous cause, it is equal to voting against the righteous cause.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-5350175794685990342016-02-08T18:41:09.835-07:002016-02-08T18:41:09.835-07:00Just to be clear, Marshall, I insert quotes from y...Just to be clear, Marshall, I insert quotes from you just so you know what I'm responding to. Inserting the entire context gets a bit tedious. I try to avoid tedious.<br /><br />I understood your claim. Your claim is that voting "influences those around you." Since no one knows how I vote and that information is not used or disseminated, I'm not at all sure how that can be claimed. Thus, your claim that not voting is "refusing to live a clearly Christian life, clear in a manner that influences those around you" is questionable.<br /><br />Now, of course, we might go to another source to determine that we should vote. I mean, we all agree that the Trinity is true even if the word is never used. There is sufficient Scripture to prove the concept without using the word. And I might even admit that we should try to influence our world for good. I'm okay with that. But we're still not to the point that "voting influences people for good" let alone "It's a sin to fail to vote." I haven't seen any evidence that voting mitigates the proliferation of evil (See California's Prop 8 or the <i>Oberkfell</i> ruling perpetrated by conservative presidential appointees to SCOTUS). I have not yet seen the connection between one Christian who fails to vote Republican (because that is the <i>only</i> non-sin vote) and helping those in need or making our world better, let alone turning anyone to Christ (of primary concern).<br /><br />You see, Marshall, I'm not even disagreeing that voting is the right thing to do. I'm just disagreeing that the argument that it's sin to fail to vote ... apparently Republican ... is valid.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-21067021162347168322016-02-08T18:12:52.495-07:002016-02-08T18:12:52.495-07:00Then, could this not be a point of personal libert...Then, could this not be a point of personal liberty? I don't see it as soon to not vote. It's not clearly stated or implied in Scripture. You are welcome to believe you are called to vote and be involved in the political process. I do not believe I am called to do so. I know that not everyone can believe as I do, otherwise or particular government would collapse, but to call those of us that aren't participating as sinning or encouraging sin is harsher that Scripture allows. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-75412901297476506162016-02-08T16:47:24.376-07:002016-02-08T16:47:24.376-07:00Stan,
My friend...you accused me of being Dan-lik...Stan,<br /><br />My friend...you accused <i>me</i> of being Dan-like, and you again comment in a manner that suggests you may suffer from that affliction.<br /><br /><i>"The claim you've made here is that refusing to vote is "refusing to live a clearly Christian life.""</i><br /><br />The claim I made is that lacking a specific Biblical command related directly to political matters <i>"is a lame excuse for refusing to live a clearly Christian life, <b>clear in a manner that influences those around you.</b>"</i> I emboldened the latter half as that was omitted in your quote, and I think it helps to clarify my meaning. What I was trying to express, and apparently wasn't doing a good job of it, is that to make disciples of others, to preach the gospel, etc., requires that we live a Christian life...that we practice what we preach. Considering we live in a nation of self-government, participating in the political process is doing our share of the heavy lifting in that form of self-government. NOT voting is passing the buck and those that do not work should not eat. <br /><br />More importantly, how can we be doing Christ's will in terms of helping others when we abdicate our responsibilities with regard to voting, whereby the outcome of an election can, and as we've seen in the last seven years, does have an impact on the most vulnerable of our nation? I point again to those Obama managed to get appointed to the Supreme Court and their immoral and unConstitutional opinions having an effect on our culture...a negative effect I might add. People can have their homes taken from them and given to private businesses. Kids will now grow up in a culture that tells them marriage is anything they want it to be. Many think the unborn aren't people, and while our young are beginning to see that isn't so (if stats are accurate), the time it took, the young that killed their own unborn and the numbers of unborn whose lives were lost is significant and indicative of a nation moving further away from Christian ideals. <br /><br />Not voting had much to do with this. The simple act of even choosing the lesser of two evils had much to do with this. Yet much of it would have been delayed at least, had more people not taken the position that their votes don't count, that their Christian ethics do not include this particular act in which a Christian can choose to engage. <br /><br />I don't need a direct line in Scripture telling me that being Christian includes doing my part to make a better world where sitting out results in one that is worse, any more than Dan Trabue should need Scripture to provide a specific definition of marriage. If doing good in the world isn't implied, if working to prevent evil in order to help prevent as much suffering as possible isn't implied, then you'll need to explain to me how I went so wrong. I'm not adding anything to Scripture. I'm saying that this single act, voting, is within the parameters of manifesting what Scripture already does say about how to live as a Christian. I don't see how we can disconnect ourselves from living in the world, even if we live as if we are not of it.<br /><br />I have more to say on the issue, including responding to David's last, but I'm out of time for now. If you would prefer I drop it, let me know. I'm thinking of putting something together on this at my blog anyway if I can find the time to do so properly. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-17200694800025648312016-02-08T01:09:12.242-07:002016-02-08T01:09:12.242-07:00I'm still not clear how voting has anything to...I'm still not clear how voting has anything to do with a Christian life. Voting is not life. It is a single, supposedly secret act. I can hold my social and political views and share those, and still be just as influential. What does it matter how I vote when it's how I live that matters. You seem to put this huge moral imperative on voting that I can't find in Scripture or the Constitution or any significant document. It is my civic responsibility, sure, but not a moral (read sin) issue. Show me in Scripture that says I need to be involved in my government, or anything even close. How I live my life is not effected by my choice about voting, and I seriously doubt my choice about voting is causing anyone to turn away from Christ. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-18101021355378988082016-02-07T20:55:51.552-07:002016-02-07T20:55:51.552-07:00I was going to let this all go, but I have to step...I was going to let this all go, but I have to step in here. The claim you've made here is that refusing to vote is "refusing to live a clearly Christian life." Now, that is a magnificent claim ... that can't actually be backed with Scripture. I am extremely cautious about adding commands for Christians that God didn't seem to deem necessary. I would suggest you might want to consider the same. Your argument that "My vote influences America toward Christianity" is neither something I find in Scripture nor something I see in practice. Are you <i>sure</i> you want to add that to our Bibles?Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-40957709250505820902016-02-07T16:53:32.046-07:002016-02-07T16:53:32.046-07:00David,
"But from everything I see, the popul...David,<br /><br /><i>"But from everything I see, the popular vote has no apparent role in the presidential election."</i><br /><br />Then you're not looking at everything there is to see. To that end, I recommend that you go <a href="http://www.learnnc.org/lp/media/lessons/davidwalbert7232004-02/electoralcollege.html#4" rel="nofollow">here</a> and click on "Does my vote count?", to see that your vote does indeed make a difference in presidential elections. This link explains an important point, in that such elections are not national as much as state. The influence of your vote, of your political and ideological leanings need only affect those of your state in order to impact the entire nation.<br /><br />You also aren't looking at the fact of how total numbers affects both other individuals, but more so those who run for office. This is why phone calls and letters are important, but in terms of only votes cast, those who might consider running for office will adjust their strategies, their platforms and even their calculations regarding whether or not they even should run based on how many people vote one way or the other. Look at how numbers impact candidates now. Talk of how Tea Party groups carry any influence is still common. They are still a relatively new phenomenon, very much compelled by the GW Bush years as much as by the threat of two Obama terms. Now, candidates consider these people when putting together their campaigns. Numbers matter. Sitting out elections matter, too. Just not in a good way.<br /><br /><i>"Finally, I have no reason to believe that making our country a "Christian nation" in any way is a biblical command."</i><br /><br />This is a lame excuse for refusing to live a clearly Christian life, clear in a manner that influences those around you. Your comments stand as excuses for not doing the right thing. I can't control how well I influence anyone (indeed, I may be one of the least influential people I know), but that is no excuse to abandon living in a manner that models Christian behavior and ethics. "Oh, what's the use?" Is that really your position?<br /><br />There is always moral decay. There will always be those who rebel against God. So what? Oh wait. Let's just let them. Let's do absolutely nothing to mitigate their effect on the world. Let's ignore the fact that our actions, words, behaviors might just how God uses us to bring to Him one more person. <br /><br />So you insist that our hope to influence our nation toward Christianity is not a Biblical mandate. Tell me where we are mandated to sit back and welcome moral decay, doing nothing about it because we are promised persecution and hardship. I doubt you can. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-9025470936352921862016-02-07T10:41:08.759-07:002016-02-07T10:41:08.759-07:00I'm not trying to make a statement. However, I...I'm not trying to make a statement. However, I doubt there were 5 to 10 million people that didn't vote Republican that would have. Second, the electoral votes don't even come close to the percentages of the popular votes for the last two elections. If the popular vote determined the president, I might acquiesce. But from everything I see, the popular vote has no apparent role in the presidential election. (Oh, and I did vote in 08.) <br /><br />Finally, I have no reason to believe that making our country a "Christian nation" in any way is a biblical command. Look at the Roman empire. They had probably the biggest growth of Christianity ever. Did they become a "better" nation? The English empire was considered a Christian nation (even it's leadership claimed belief). Did that make it a better nation? (I'm saying no to both since one was horrible to its people and the other collapsed due to sin and corruption.) We need to make disciples, not to make a better country, but to save people. The making of a more Christian nation isn't even a tertiary goal (not biblically). And it is not historically viable. Even if a nation made up of all true believers formed, give it two generations to see it start to corrupt. We are sinful humans, and our sin nature rots us. Christianity will never be the majority, so the decay of this nation is inevitable. If Romney or McCain had won, I doubt they would have even slowed the decay. Sure, Obamacare wouldn't have happened (but that's not a moral or immoral program). I have my doubts that SSM wouldn't have been legalized. Even the Republican side is giving in to that since they too are succumbing to the emotional argument. They might have slowed the fiscal decline, but the moral decline is from the people, not the government. <br /><br />The reason I see the moral decay of this country as a natural progression of natural man is because we were promised persecution and hardship. American Christians have not experienced life threatening persecution in this nation ever. We are simply due. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-9333639637175031532016-02-07T02:17:39.471-07:002016-02-07T02:17:39.471-07:00If his pastor had been vying for the position to t...If his pastor had been vying for the position to the extent that he garnered national recognition and support, then it would simply be a matter of whether or not that support suggested a real possibility of winning, rather than merely helping the worse of the others from winning. But overall and generally, write in votes do not amount to anything more than frivolous votes, regardless of how sincerely the voter hoped to see the write-in candidate win. It rarely is difficult to imagine if write-ins, or even third party candidates have any legitimate chance. Thus, to cast a vote for a guaranteed loser is indeed a vote for the lesser of the two evils representing the two major parties. <br /><br />It is also not a viable statement, given the fact that few have any idea of who the pastor is or what he believes and represents. As such, as a statement, it has no real voice. No one can hear it. <br /><br />So now, we're looking at either a woman of questionable character or a socialist buffoon, neither of which will do any better than the current idiot-in-chief. While I understand the frustration of having to choose between the winner of that race, and a GOP candidate that is less than ideal, I can't see that it isn't inviting harm to our nation and its people by sitting it out, which will make it easier for the Democrat to win. There's no way anyone here can tell me we'd be as badly off as we are now if those sitting out the last two elections did their duty and cast their vote for McCain (gag) and then assuming he would've lost anyway, Romney afterward. Neither of these two guys lit my fire at all. Neither of them would have been anywhere near as bad as Obumble. But likely we'd have had better people on the SCOTUS and we'd not be a country that has either Obamacare or SSM. So thank you very much to all those who "made a statement" by sitting out the last two elections. I guarantee the statement I heard was not what was intended. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-43675346747651238442016-02-06T22:05:40.161-07:002016-02-06T22:05:40.161-07:00I'm not sure I see the correlation of making d...I'm not sure I see the correlation of making disciples and how I vote. I've always understood making disciples to be an intimate, personal thing, not something vague like my private vote. I wouldn't call what a street evangelist does as making disciples. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-35662062904868181982016-02-06T20:49:05.573-07:002016-02-06T20:49:05.573-07:00One other question. If a Christian decided to vote...One other question. If a Christian decided to vote and voted for, say, a write-in -- you know, like his pastor or someone he actually thought could do the job better -- would you classify that as a "no vote"? Would you say that is a vote for "the other guy", or would you say that it is a viable statement?Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-32849680944946290252016-02-06T20:17:52.798-07:002016-02-06T20:17:52.798-07:00From your comment of 2/06/2016 7:38 PM
1. Don'...From your comment of 2/06/2016 7:38 PM<br /><br />1. Don't know if I want to go that far. I have to say that based upon his record, both before his first election, as well as after his first term, not voting in the last two general elections may indeed qualify for the term "sin". <br /><br />2. Sure.<br /><br />3. I wouldn't insist that failing to do one's duty is a sin, but I do believe a Christian should do whatever possible to mitigate the proliferation of evil in this world to the extent where they are able. <br /><br />I'm also unprepared to state emphatically that every candidate who doesn't get my vote is evil, means to engage in evil, or will implement anything that will bring about or support evil. Not every suffering is due to evil intent. Bernie seems to actually believe socialism is good for us. <br /><br />4. I would say that it is a manifestation of Christian living in that it is part and parcel of life itself. We live life as a Christian and do all things for the glory of God. <br /><br />Here's another angle that just came to mind. As we know, this is supposed to be a self-governing country. It is our form of government and that makes voting our duty as citizens. Leaving that duty undone leaves fellow citizens to suffer whatever results from too many people not doing their duty as citizens. Allowing suffering one could prevent, or have a hand in trying to prevent would qualify as sinful. It's like leaving others to do the work that needs to be done. Is that sinful? If so, then so would be not voting. <br /><br />If we are called as Christians to help those in need, how is voting not a means of doing that, or not, at least, on par with doing that? <br /> Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-43494834197821465572016-02-06T19:56:26.444-07:002016-02-06T19:56:26.444-07:00"But, seriously, you keep speaking of a "...<i>"But, seriously, you keep speaking of a "goal", of moving our culture toward a desired goal. I really, genuinely want to know what you mean by that. It does appear that you believe that it is the obligation of every Christian to make a bad society good."</i><br /><br />There's a bit of a dichotomy here (not perfectly certain that's the right word, but it sounds good). On the one hand, we have making disciples, preaching the word, etc., as a Christian duty. On the other, politics not being a Christian duty. The problem is that I see every action I can make as either engaging in the former or not engaging in the former. Making disciples of Christ makes for a good society, don't you think? As many disciples as possible helps make that better society, even if making a better society isn't the goal. In short, it goes hand in hand. One way to make disciples is by modeling behavior, Christian behavior. That is as much preaching as reading from Scripture (though it doesn't replace Scripture). Indeed, I've always been of the mind that even atheists benefit by living a Christian life, even if they refuse to accept that Christ is God and that God even exists. Better, of course, would be that they live that life because it pleases God that they do so. <br /><br />Voting is simply making one's opinion known in a general way about how life should be. It is, as I've said, just one more way to influence the culture, the end game being as many disciples of Christ as possible. Certainly there's a huge gap between any candidate and what he might accomplish versus the ideal nation full of disciples living in a manner pleasing and glorifying to God. But that doesn't mean that every little inch in that direction is meaningless or not worth the effort of casting a vote. The stars is all the nation disciples of Christ. The moon is a nation that is closer to actually being a nation of disciples than it is now...perhaps too many non-believers, but most acting like Christians and less suffering as a result. We might not get to the stars, but the moon is higher than here. My efforts toward that end may still be as rags, but I can't see that I should disregard the consequences of my actions and non-actions when living out the teachings of Christ.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-50563078510260637652016-02-06T19:55:51.611-07:002016-02-06T19:55:51.611-07:00Another thing David said that others have also sug...Another thing David said that others have also suggested in similar ways:<br /><br /><i>"I can see no Biblical command to vote, or be political. So, its not for me. I fully expect this country to lead itself to destruction, and my insignificant vote won't slow that process."</i><br /><br />Stan accused me (twice now) of sounding like Dan. I think this does as well, if not more so. Why does the Bible need to state something in such specific terms? Voting is not separate from being a Christian who must live in the world. I think we are taught to live a Christian life and I can't see how not participating in that which has the potential to help others (the nation in this case) does not count as doing one's Christian duty to help those in need. I see every vote I cast as my chance to preach. If two candidates are separated by a single position, one taking a moral view and the other an immoral view, my vote for the moral view is preaching, teaching and making disciples of Christ, even if my vote doesn't help the better candidate win. I'm still going to do the Christian thing and support the better candidate or the candidate that seems less likely to cause the most harm. How could I not and still consider myself acting in a manner that glorifies God? It still stands akin to sins of omission. I had the chance and chose to step aside and let the poop hit the fan. That's Christian? I just don't see it.<br /><br />You insist on looking at voting as a purely political act totally detached from Christian teaching. I see every move we make, and don't make, a demonstration of Christian living. (Don't ask me how well I'm doing.) The country isn't leading itself to destruction. You're helping by letting it get there as quickly as possible by not voting, by not being involved in the political process. Thanks so much.<br /><br /><i>""I don't find your reasoning compelling, so you don't actually have any rationale."</i><br /><br />Stan. C'mon. That's not even close to what I've been saying. I didn't just claim the "reasoning" wasn't compelling. I explained why in fairly complete detail. There's nothing "Dan-like" about my comments. I feel rather compelled to insist your accusation is quite "Dan-like". But I won't. That would be "Dan-like".<br /><br />Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-4507606161403799542016-02-06T19:38:41.904-07:002016-02-06T19:38:41.904-07:00Just to be clear here, then, I understand you to s...Just to be clear here, then, I understand you to say that:<br /><br />1. It <i>is</i> a sin for a Christian to fail to vote.<br /><br />2. It <i>is</i> possible for a Christian to vote and sin in that vote. (That is, some votes <i>are</i> sinful.)<br /><br />3. It is every Christian's duty (read, "It is a sin if they don't") to stop evil in the world (obviously within his or her realm of possibility or influence).<br /><br />4. Voting, for Christians, is part of following biblical (read "God's") commands.<br /><br />Let me know where I failed to understand you properly.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-86357372411835433492016-02-06T19:23:25.625-07:002016-02-06T19:23:25.625-07:00"I wondered if it was a de facto way, that vo...<i>"I wondered if it was a de facto way, that voting, on its own, glorifies God."</i><br /><br />I would suggest to you that it depends upon what your intention is when you vote. Are you seeking to improve things, assuming that one would hope to for the glory of God.<br /><br /><i>"Or, to ask from the other direction, since it is a sin for believers not to glorify God, is it a sin not to vote?"</i><br /><br />I would respond by saying that since there is most always a choice between outcomes that have some moral implication, then not doing one's part to bring about the better outcome would be as a sin of omission. While the lesser to two evils is still evil, the greater of two evils is worse. Note that there was once a code of eye for an eye. It got better. I'm looking to do something similar when I vote for candidates that weren't my pick in the primaries. I'm looking to do something similar when choosing between primary candidates that don't include my absolute ideal. <br /><br /><i>"And if so, is it a sin not to vote a particular way, or just not to vote at all?"</i><br /><br />The answer is dictated by the situation. But as long as there's a worse option, and there always is, then I would suggest that to not vote at all would be the sinful option, if there is such a thing.<br /><br /><i>"Is it a Christian obligation to make bad people into good people or to make a bad political party into a good political party or to make a bad nation into a good nation?"</i><br /><br />But that isn't the point of voting. Not at any given opportunity. It is only to bring about the best possible situation based on the choices available to us for the purpose. <br /><br />Let's reverse the question a bit. Is it Christian to allow evil to flourish when one has the ability to influence change toward the other direction? Not voting results in the greater of two evils having a better shot at success. Not voting makes you complicit in allowing that which does not glorify God. <br /><br /><i>"Did Christ call His followers to make a better world, or did He call them to make disciples, to preach the gospel, to teach, to pray, to stand firm?"</i><br /><br />Voting does this as much as any other action we have the liberty to perpetrate. How we live, the things we do, affirms all that we preach, teach and pray about. It influences others to act in a manner that glorifies God, making them disciples. And it definitely demonstrates how firmly we stand behind our beliefs. This last one is without question, and it is not to others that it demonstrates this as much as it demonstrates it to God...just like every other behavior.<br /><br /><i>"I haven't actually taken my own position except to say that I've always voted ... which, I suppose, is not a hard enough stance."</i><br /><br />My mistake here. My original comment was not specific to any one person necessarily, but rather, I was attempting to address all the previous comments. What happened after that was the result of responses to that comment and, well, tangents, you know? It became more a debate about whether one should vote, not that you specifically don't. At least it wasn't my intention to imply that. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-5544879988190933142016-02-06T19:20:39.146-07:002016-02-06T19:20:39.146-07:00" I think you're confusing making excuses..."<i> I think you're confusing making excuses with having reasons.</i>"<br /><br />Wow, again, <i>very</i> Dan-like. "I don't find your reasoning compelling, so you don't actually have any rationale. The only reason you're taking the position you're taking is because you're not looking at it honestly. The <i>only</i> reason anyone would disagree with me (at least on this position) is that they are being dishonest and refuse to think it through. Or they're just evil." Nice.<br /><br />But, seriously, you keep speaking of a "goal", of moving our culture toward a desired goal. I really, genuinely want to know what you mean by that. It <i>does</i> appear that you believe that it is the obligation of every Christian to make a bad society good.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-86667285350128092402016-02-06T18:55:31.181-07:002016-02-06T18:55:31.181-07:00"Do you know the meaning of the word "re...<i>"Do you know the meaning of the word "reasonable"?"</i><br /><br />Yes. Yes I do, and thus my use of the term is...uh...reasonable. <br /><br />Look, having a reason does not make something reasonable. I think you're confusing making excuses with having reasons. None of what is given to rationalize not voting is, in my humble opinion, a reason to recuse one's self. The "one vote doesn't matter" argument simply isn't true, as it isn't just "one vote", but "one vote added to millions of others". The hope is that it is "one <i>more</i> vote" than the opposition gets. But not voting insures one less vote and that is a vote for the opposition. So no, that argument isn't the least bit reasonable. There. Does our friendly neighborhood progressive liberal troll explain himself so clearly?<br /><br />David laments his location renders his vote worthless. But again, that is never true in the way it appears to be. The fewer votes there are for the better candidates, or the better parties (such as they are), the more emboldened the leftists become and frankly, the more you validate their belief that the conservative side is disappearing. By not voting, you're helping to make that belief become a reality. I'm not saying your individual impact is great. I'm saying your individual act together with the acts of others of like minds will produce results. Voting is but one way, but it is as important as any other. It is YOU that has reduced its worth by the attitude that one vote means so little. <br /><br />Voting is but one act that influences the culture in which we live. Any act that moves the culture toward a desired goal is a worthy act and one that then is best employed. And keep in mind that the general election is not the only opportunity to vote. There's the mid-term elections, local elections, school board elections and others. Each vote is a single act and each can be a way to glorify God, even if it means that lesser of two evils isn't as palatable as one would like. How does that move you toward your goal? By making the next election consider that the worse of the two evils won't cut it anymore. It bends the curve upward. We may not see the full benefits of our one tiny ripple, but it does have an effect. THAT is reasonable, even if the benefits are not fully felt.<br /><br /><i>"I was using sarcasm."</i><br /><br />No kidding? So was I. Too bad sarcasm isn't as recognizable as one would hope on a blog. But seriously, I did not choose my words to insult, but to point out a reality. Those "reasons" are cheap rationalizations. I can't alter reality. If the truth hurts, so be it. Would you prefer I sugar coat it? I'll try to do so in the future if I think I can get the point across by doing so.<br /><br />---more coming---Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-72732498498110935842016-02-06T18:55:09.461-07:002016-02-06T18:55:09.461-07:00You take mine as a "soft line" stance. I...You take mine as a "soft line" stance. I've taken no stance. I've countered the "I won't vote; I'll just let God do what He will" position and I've countered the "You have to vote or you're evil" approach. I haven't actually taken my own position <i>except</i> to say that I've always voted ... which, I suppose, is not a hard enough stance.<br /><br />Just one question that continues to float around and nag at me. You said, "not voting is never a good option." Does that mean that you consider it a moral, Christian, somehow biblical obligation to vote; do you consider it a sin for a Christian not to vote?Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-57626409907290841802016-02-06T18:24:37.901-07:002016-02-06T18:24:37.901-07:00"Now, exactly who do I vote for to get anythi...<br /><i>"Now, exactly who do I vote for to get anything at all closer to that?"</i><br /><br />I don't know where you get the idea that voting is intended as the means to do that. I'm saying that one goal does not exclude the other from our duties as BOTH Christians AND citizens of this country, that was founded on the notion of self-government. Living here obliges us to take part in that self-government. <br /><br />And you can look at it with a more positive bent: Not the "lesser of two evils", but which of the two is the better choice? To me, the better choice gets us closer to the goal of which your question above addresses. Perhaps not by much, but I'll take every little step in the direction of influencing the culture toward a more God-centered nation. The better the quality of the candidate, the easier it is to get an even more godly candidate running the next time, as well as influencing more people to support such a candidate. It's the peer pressure idea for the good as opposed to toward the wicked. It does indeed work both ways. At least I believe it does, and I believe I owe it to Him to give it my best effort. That effort includes selecting amongst the available candidates, parties or groups that will move us toward our shared goal of a nation of people whose hearts are won over for Christ.<br /><br /><i>"It is not voting, which in itself is something."</i><br /><br />Keep telling yourself that and you might one day be convinced. But it still won't be true. Not voting has no impact on anything other than to allow the worst to rise to the top. Not voting makes you responsible for all that goes wrong, because you made no effort to prevent the worst possible outcome. In that sense, yes, not voting is doing something. It's just not doing anything of benefit, and certainly not glorifying God.<br /><br />I totally understand your frustration with the process. I share that frustration. But it is borne out of a false belief that voting is all we need to do as citizens of a self-governing nation. That's why it fails. <br /><br />I also reject the argument that I'm putting my truth in politics over God. Not at all. But furthering His Will in all I do is what I poorly attempt to do every day. I cannot do that and do nothing about what is happening in my country. It isn't about politics. It is about serving Him. If I'm putting my trust anywhere, it's in Him and that He'll use me to do good in this world while I am still in it. The political process is merely a means to trying to get that done. It is not a god I worship, but a tool I use to do good to the best of my ability, just as any other tool for any other purpose. We don't need an example from Scripture to determine that serving God through the use of the political process is but another way of serving Him. Of <i>course</i> it is. Not THE way, just one more way. <br /><br />What's more, there was no form of government like ours in Scripture that required the input of the people to govern themselves. But there was self-governing taught in Scripture constantly. It's just that it was on an individual basis.<br /><br />As to "hard line stances", yours conversely can be said to be too "soft line" for the situation. Yet I'm only saying that not voting is never a good option when the result is less opposition for the worst possible outcome. I think that should indeed be quite clear and reason enough for everyone to vote.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-90528493022812019582016-02-06T17:44:50.760-07:002016-02-06T17:44:50.760-07:00"What they are not are reasonable." Wow,..."What they are not are reasonable." Wow, do you know how much you sound like our friendly neighborhood progressive liveral troll right now? Do you know the meaning of the word "reasonable"? You may not <i>agree</i> with the reason or you may not find the reasoning <i>compelling</i>, but if "reasonable" means "in accord with reason", then they <i>were</i> reasonable. Oh, and insulting someone because you don't agree with their reasons is not a good way to engage in a dialog. I was using sarcasm.<br /><br />"<i>not by voting alone</i>." I did not suggest that voting cannot be a way of bringing glory to God. I wondered if it was a <i>de facto</i> way, that voting, on its own, glorifies God. Or, to ask from the other direction, since it is a sin for believers not to glorify God, is it a sin not to vote? And if so, is it a sin not to vote a particular way, or just not to vote at all?<br /><br />"<i>you help restrain that drift in what way exactly?</i>" Am I preventing the drift? No. <i>Can</i> I prevent the drift? No. <i>Am I supposed to</i> prevent the drift? Well, now, that is the original question, wasn't it? Is it a Christian obligation to make bad people into good people or to make a bad political party into a good political party or to make a bad nation into a good nation? That really is the question. Is that really what we are here to do?<br /><br />At the core, that is my question. Is that what we're here to do? Did Christ call His followers to make a better world, or did He call them to make disciples, to preach the gospel, to teach, to pray, to stand firm? I can think of a <i>lot</i> of things we are called to do. I'm just not clear that "vote in the next election" is one of them.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-42906296755089872492016-02-06T17:09:05.604-07:002016-02-06T17:09:05.604-07:00"Nice way to engage in a dialog."
Thank...<i>"Nice way to engage in a dialog."</i><br /><br />Thanks. It's good to get right to the point. I did not choose these words for effect. They accurately describe what is going on in some of the "reasons" for not voting. They're old, tired and overly used excuses. What they are not are reasonable. Pardon me for saying what I think, and sorry again for not anticipating sensitivities. Jeez! Is there no one left who won't get all wobbly and defensive these days at the drop of a hat?<br /><br /><i>"The assumption, then, is that bringing glory to God (the goal in question) is accomplished by voting..."</i><br /><br />Of course not by voting alone, if that's what you're suggesting. But to suggest that voting cannot be a way of bringing glory to God is troubling as well. When there are issues that must be resolved in order to alleviate any manner of suffering and trouble, voting is one way to do that. It is seeing problems and doing something to help deal with those problems, and it's a relatively simple, painless and effortless way to do it. Yet, along with others of like mind, it can be the most effective in the long run. We can't sit back and choose not to under the lame excuse that it hasn't achieved one's desired purpose so far or every time. It is simply another of the ongoing duties of citizenship, and I might add, the duty of those devoted to doing God's will. <br /><br />I don't concern myself with just how perfectly "godly" a candidate might be. Unless I'm personally acquainted with the candidate, I simply don't know how I can possibly assume the authority to judge someone in that way. All I need to do is consider the problems and make the best choice available toward addressing those problems in the most godly manner I can. But at the end of the day, it constitutes just ONE thing I <i>can</i> do, as well as one of those things I <i>should</i> do that MIGHT make a difference in some way. We can worry about whether or not it DID after it is all said and done.<br /><br /><i>"The values of the parties offered are drifting farther and farther from the values I hold."</i><br /><br />And you help restrain that drift in what way exactly? Don't take too much offense. I don't mean to suggest that I'm holding on that bow line all by myself all the time. But that drift is the result of those like you and me not making more noise about the drift. We may as well be powering that ship away from the values we hold!<br /> <br /><br />---more coming---Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-18448409561823809592016-02-06T16:27:01.379-07:002016-02-06T16:27:01.379-07:00I'm curious how my reasons are cheap.
My enti...I'm curious how my reasons are cheap.<br /><br />My entire voting life, I have lived in blue states. So, my solitary vote literally counts for nothing. <br /><br />If the options are only the lesser of two evils, how can either of them get us closer to where we want to be? (As an example) The democrats are on the liberal end of the spectrum. Sure, some slide closer to conservative than others, but they're all on the liberal end. Republicans are more middle of the scale. Sure, some slide closer to conservative, but most would probably fall closer to the liberal side than the conservative, and none of them are sliding any further to the conservative side. Everything is sliding toward the liberal side. So, who could I vote for that would try to bring us back to the conservative side, and be a candidate that could win (since he'd be going against both parties at that point)? <br /><br />Finally, I don't encourage anyone else to not vote. If you feel drawn to do that, go right on ahead. Like I said before, God will use those that are in the process to accomplish His Will. I feel no such calling. I can see no Biblical command to vote, or be political. So, its not for me. I fully expect this country to lead itself to destruction, and my insignificant vote won't slow that process. The fact that Christians have had it so good so far has been an amazing blessing...and a horrible curse. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.com