tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post5435353926874950640..comments2024-03-28T13:07:51.025-07:00Comments on Winging It: Can't StopStanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-52498049995088576472013-03-07T07:38:33.546-07:002013-03-07T07:38:33.546-07:00See that, Danny? That's three! I said in the l...See that, Danny? That's three! I said in the last paragraph what <i>three</i> of you would have said! I must be doing something right! (Okay, maybe not, but I can dream, can't I?)<br /><br />I would also point out (to all readers) that <a href="http://www.dougwils.com/Apologetics-in-the-Void/if-it-were-a-pancake.html" rel="nofollow">Douglas Wilson</a> did a very fine piece on the article. I recommend it.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-6437623183862350362013-03-07T07:13:55.111-07:002013-03-07T07:13:55.111-07:00David,
The creation/evolution is indeed a major i...David,<br /><br />The creation/evolution is indeed a major issue. However, I still wouldn't get dogmatic about a certain age of the earth. I've seen pretty convincing arguments to support both the 24 hour creation day v. the day age. I honestly don't know that it makes a huge difference. I just don't see that trying to establish an actual "age" of the earth is something that is that major of an issue.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-82802385421246056932013-03-06T09:05:47.798-07:002013-03-06T09:05:47.798-07:00On that note this article can be summed up from Ge...On that note this article can be summed up from Genesis also with just three words: "hath God said?"Danny Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15006024707303951009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-58657945670700013982013-03-06T06:28:48.242-07:002013-03-06T06:28:48.242-07:00Yes, whether or not God created the earth is impor...Yes, whether or not God created the earth is important. McSwain argued against a timeline statement. (Well, "argued" is the wrong word.) Dan Phillips recently wrote about <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-most-offensive-verse-in-bible.html" rel="nofollow">the Most Offensive Verse in the Bible</a>. There were lots of options, but he suggested it was "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." That, you see, makes God God and us not, makes God Sovereign and us his servants, makes God ultimate and us creations. It points to everything that follows that further offends sinful man. If we could just dismantle that little verse, we're on our way to destroying the whole thing. Oh, yes, Creation is important. Dates, not so much.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-66625605008485900672013-03-06T03:44:23.344-07:002013-03-06T03:44:23.344-07:00I guess I can see the "in-house" aspect ...I guess I can see the "in-house" aspect of the timing of His return. But the Creation/Evolution debate is quite prevalent. You and I might not have much opportunity to debate the issue, but Christian scientists are out there fighting this fight. While the average laymen might not be too concerned about it, it is something we need to hold on to, because like Stan said, to give in is to let go of so many other doctrines, even those that try to combine Creation with Evolution. I I'm really not sure why McSwain listed that one. Like I said, which one of these is not like the other.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-36520777944334898542013-03-05T16:56:27.382-07:002013-03-05T16:56:27.382-07:00David,
I would say that the fact that Christ is r...David,<br /><br />I would say that the fact that Christ is returning is not secondary. I would say that the timing is. While we are to live like He's coming back tomorrow, it could well be another 2000 years. <br /><br />Also, I would agree that the age of the earth in billions suggests evolution, I'm not sure it's worth getting dogmatic on 6000 or 10,000 or whatever. <br /><br />I'd agree with Stan, that this in house debate kind of thing is not something I'd be talking about in a conversation with an unbeliever. Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-79993919171283515202013-03-05T12:50:29.229-07:002013-03-05T12:50:29.229-07:00I was curious, Craig, as to why he would bring up ...I was curious, Craig, as to why he would bring up "in house" issues like that. I think that Jesus's return is imminent, but I'm not entirely sure that I mean by it what he means. And I'm not at all sure about the age of the earth except that I have very little reason to suppose it's billions, but on the other hand I don't make that a matter of faith/doctrinal purity, so I'm not bringing it up to people. So what is he aiming at there?<br /><br />I am in full agreement with you that we (unbelievers certainly and lots of believers as well) don't understand God's version of love. Why would we? Ours is so chaotic. We think it is a good pizza ("I just <i>love</i> pizza") or sex or deep romance or familial relations or ... oh, I don't know, it's all so confusing. Love God? Umm ... like a pizza or a wife? No, that can't be right. Let's see ...<br /><br />I believe, in fact, that God's definition of love <i>includes</i> truth in it. Am I, for instance, loving God as commanded if my perception of God is wrong? Let's make it easier. Is it loving my wife to give her a power drill because I wanted a power drill and I'm sure she'd love one, too? Or is it loving to really know my wife and understand that while I might like such a gift, she has other things in mind? I think truth isn't an addendum to love, but a primary component.<br /><br />David,<br />I'm not sure I'd call 4 and 6 "secondary", but they certainly aren't things I'm throwing out at unbelievers. And while I'd consider, for instance, 10,000 years (because it could be more or less) secondary, I do think that it's impossible to maintain biblical coherence and an Evolution view. Too many things end up thrown away, like "God created", the Fall of Man, Adam (Rom 5), New Testament folk who seemed to believe it was all real (like Jesus and Paul), the reliability of Scripture, the capability of the Holy Spirit to lead His own into truth, and on and on. Still, I'm not using either Christ's return or Creation as public speaking points.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-91901952541067317032013-03-05T12:36:38.357-07:002013-03-05T12:36:38.357-07:00Dan, I've never figured out why the "Can&...Dan, I've never figured out why the "Can't we all just get along" crowd ("I mean, really, all that really matters is that we love one another, right?") are so keen on correcting what we think. Shouldn't they just let us think what we will because love is all that matters?<br /><br />And I was interested that he made arguments without arguments as well. We shouldn't say those things. Why? Well, because, he's more spiritual than we are and that's obviously better than us. I guess. On the other hand, having tossed Scripture, I don't suppose he has any authoritative ground to stand on, so I suppose that's all he has.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-45754756020565281212013-03-05T12:33:29.394-07:002013-03-05T12:33:29.394-07:00Wow, that's two! Both Marshall and Glenn would...Wow, that's two! Both Marshall and Glenn would have said what I said at the end! I guess I got something right! :)Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-48113322387583293642013-03-05T12:03:25.735-07:002013-03-05T12:03:25.735-07:00Craig, I don't know that I'd agree that 4 ...Craig, I don't know that I'd agree that 4 and 6 are secondary. Scripture is quite clear that Christ's return is imminent. We are told to live as if He was returning tomorrow. And while 6 is directly referred to in Scripture, and young Earth can be inferred. 10K is most likely too few, but billions is the opposite of what we see in Scripture. Billions suggests Evolution, and Evolution is anti-God. I know there are Christians that have tried to add God back into the mix of Evolution, but I've always seen that as trying to let the world define Truth and we are just trying to play along to get along. To me, the claims are more convoluted than Creation and Evolution can ever be. Though, 6 really doesn't seem to fit in with the other 5, like it was an afterthought. Like those old Highlight magazine games, which one of these don't go with the others.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-18236168809330575672013-03-05T10:16:19.564-07:002013-03-05T10:16:19.564-07:00It seems to me that if McSwain lived up to his own...It seems to me that if McSwain lived up to his own advice he would encourage Christians to believe as they desire to believe, no matter how outlandish, as he does. He makes his argument ex nihilo. He provides us with nothing to believe in Christianity's stead. How crafty, huh? "While I "debunk" your strongly held beliefs without providing specific reasons why it ought to be debunked, I get to leverage my own "spirituality" to do the debunking without having to bother explaining why, or how, my own positions are superior or trustworthy." Danny Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15006024707303951009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-22634434632587565702013-03-05T09:59:18.698-07:002013-03-05T09:59:18.698-07:00Stan,
I guess I see #'s 4 & 6 as kind of ...Stan,<br /><br />I guess I see #'s 4 & 6 as kind of secondary issues, and don't know why I'd be bringing either of them up in a conversation with a non believer.<br /><br />The rest are pretty foundational to actually being a Christian. But hey if an atheist can be a Christian keeping quiet about this list is pretty small potatoes. <br /><br />I was with Scott McKnight a few weeks ago in a conversation about his Jesus Creed book. His point is that when asked, Jesus answered;, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength", and "love your neighbor as your self". He went on to say that this is the basis for all of the law and prophets. It seems obvious that love is a major part of what it means to be a Christian. But, as McKnight pointed out it becomes problematic because God's definition of love is so much different from the culture's. Frankly, different from much of the Church's. <br /><br />I'm certainly not suggesting that Truth is not important, nor am I suggesting that "All you need is love" as defined by culture is the answer either. But Jesus seems pretty clear that love (properly defined) is a major (arguably the) underpinning of what it means to follow Christ.<br /><br />I would also suspect that as one looks at the Shema, it could be argued that in encompasses things like Truth and justice, etc.<br /><br />Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-6565575983709382022013-03-05T09:35:52.237-07:002013-03-05T09:35:52.237-07:00Your last paragraph was also my thought. People a...Your last paragraph was also my thought. People always say love is more important, but without truth there can be no love. <br /><br />It isn't love, e.g., to give sanction to homosexual behavior, knowing that it is rebellion against God, as well as being medically and emotionally harmful to the individual. Of course that goes with any sexual immorality.<br /><br />It isn't love to say nothing let people believe there is more than one way to God. <br /><br />And so forth. WIthout truth there is no real love.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-22231706306060886822013-03-05T06:24:17.451-07:002013-03-05T06:24:17.451-07:00Yes, indeed. "Be nice" is not love. (It&...Yes, indeed. "Be nice" is not love. (It's interesting that he does seem to be shouting "Be nice!" and was called on it by some for being mean about it.) Paul wrote that the greatest gifts without love are useless. Love without truth is equally meaningless. Even in its simplest form, "I love you" means nothing if we don't have a valid meaning of "love". He missed that, apparently.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-51823359216120172402013-03-05T05:58:13.294-07:002013-03-05T05:58:13.294-07:00Your last paragraph went where my comment was to g...Your last paragraph went where my comment was to go. Put another way, how are we to love? That's a fairly subjective question unless truth is a part of the equation. Truth is not subjective, though when and how we acknowledge it can be. <br /><br />When we hear guys like this speak of love, it is usually another way of merely saying, "Be nice". But love often does not feel nice at all, as when we discipline our children or hold each other accountable for our actions or, oh the horror, to the truth. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.com