tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post3987182652856679987..comments2024-03-18T19:40:54.907-07:00Comments on Winging It: The Culture War is LostStanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-85991385910495146082016-06-16T18:35:09.367-07:002016-06-16T18:35:09.367-07:00Which get back to changing hearts, not passing mor...Which get back to changing hearts, not passing more laws.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-48124920522559426692016-06-16T18:01:07.469-07:002016-06-16T18:01:07.469-07:00When people say, "You can't legislate mor...When people say, "You can't legislate morality", they're generally talking about the concept of making people moral. Craig is right. All legislation is legislating morality. Our laws reflect what our society believes is moral and immoral. David is right. As an obvious example, a "No Gun Zone" is legislating morality ... that doesn't make people moral. Two different ideas. Laws are based on morality. Laws won't make people moral.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-51362462334470830252016-06-16T17:53:48.986-07:002016-06-16T17:53:48.986-07:00However, legislated morality does not make moral p...However, legislated morality does not make moral people. As Stan points out, making more gun control laws won't reduce the number of people seeking to murder. When I hear legislate morality, I hear legislate people into morality. I agree that it's whose morality the laws are based on, but they don't make people more moral (which is the apparent desire of those demanding more gun control laws). The idea that if we can just make more laws that align with God's morality then we'll make a better world is false. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-33831806590039835002016-06-16T13:32:55.786-07:002016-06-16T13:32:55.786-07:00Isn't virtually all legislation legislating mo...Isn't virtually all legislation legislating morality? That's always been my response, it's not if you legislate morality it's whose morality you legislate. Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-5358241557361891692016-06-16T00:22:09.319-07:002016-06-16T00:22:09.319-07:00This would be the first time I've actually see...This would be the first time I've actually seen someone say you can legislate morality. I've been accused of it, but never seen it actually done. Trying to influence the culture by the political system will only make more criminals, not better people. The only way to make better people is changed hearts. Laws won't do it (ie all of the Old Testament). We are promised that the righteous will be few. It would be irrational to think that we could have a positive influence on the culture at large. Certainly in our communities, but there won't be enough us to change the culture. I think that the fact that we "had our heyday" was for the express purpose of making us even more reviled by our culture.<br /><br />This is not to say that we give up, just that we should expect to win the culture war, only the eternal one.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-57350692569182049672016-06-15T18:41:49.117-07:002016-06-15T18:41:49.117-07:00You speak about how we are in the minority now and...You speak about how we are in the minority now and how the more people who defend morality the fewer will oppose it. So ... what happened? We <i>were</i> the majority. We <i>did</i> oppose immorality. Something changed, and not for the positive. We had the momentum, the lead, even the power, and it's gone.<br /><br />Making disciples is intended to affect the culture??? But ... didn't Jesus say that the world would hate His disciples?<br /><br />I believe as you do that changed hearts make changed lives, that people who come to Christ will change. I just disagree that making the world a better place is the aim of that process of people coming to Christ. I just can't find it in my Bible.<br /><br />So, at the bottom, we disagree. That's fine. You think we ought to aim to affect the culture. I think that Scripture is clear that the culture will oppose Christ and we are to aim to make disciples. So I'll go on with the Great Commission and you go ahead with whatever marching orders you have on the subject. Let me know how it comes out because right now it looks bleak for the "redeeming the culture" approach.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-17525704517965852262016-06-15T18:16:26.684-07:002016-06-15T18:16:26.684-07:00Again, I don't see the aim as being so distinc...Again, I don't see the aim as being so distinct and divided. From the perspective of the individual looking to serve God, one needn't do only that which refers directly to God and spreading the Message in every situation in order to still be acting in a Christian manner, and thus spreading the Message. <br /><br />Frankly, moralizing WILL fix things, to the extent that anyone chooses to moralize anymore. The more people who defend morality, the fewer are left who oppose it. It's a zero sum game and a matter of majority versus minority. We are in the minority now, largely because few people chose to defend righteousness vigorously while so many were pushing depravity and self-worship. <br /><br />You say you want Scripture for support, but most of that which you cited in your post stands as that support. I refer again to the making of disciples, for example. This is to affect the culture. Affect the people and the culture follows and whether we do it by directly encouraging people to come to Christ, or by defending Christian principles of right behaviors in public policy, we accomplish the same ends as regards the moral quality of the culture. <br /><br />You refer to passages that speak to the state of the culture, or that we are not of this world. I don't think that means we're not to work to affect the culture positively and for God's glory. Those verses are only a "state of the culture" semantic. Now what do we do with it? They don't stand as "not our job" or that we're to distance ourselves from that state. The reason the state of the culture is what it is, I say again, is due to a lack of influence toward the better direction. Being in the world while not being of the world does not in any way mean we're to ignore the world. Being of the world is merely a "state of the Christian", so to speak. Or at least how we're to regard ourselves with regard to the culture. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-75774518057692094092016-06-15T09:48:24.538-07:002016-06-15T09:48:24.538-07:00Marshall, is it your contention that we ARE here t...Marshall, is it your contention that we ARE here to fight the culture war (as a specific aim)? I'd like to see any biblical references you might have on that score. You know me; I'm always willing to look at Scripture and even change my mind if Scripture says I'm wrong.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-237644862388783342016-06-15T09:47:19.384-07:002016-06-15T09:47:19.384-07:00The question is the aim. Are we aiming (by vote an...The question is the aim. Are we aiming (by vote and argument and media and ...) to make our culture better, or are we aiming to bring people to Christ? If the former, you won't find it in Scripture. If the latter, you will ... AND you'll affect the former. So many Christians spend so much time getting worked up over the culture that they seem to forget entirely that the culture is not a person and that Christ died to save the lost. Changed hearts make changed lives much more efficiently than enacting better laws.<br /><br />But, please note, I DID say we need to be involved and even vote. We've "lost the culture war" in that the culture in its moral and mental decline has moved more and more away from anything "Christian" and no amount of moralizing or even "voting in the right people" will fix that. My point is that fixing that isn't our job. We can't. Christ can.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-63413399601460473962016-06-15T09:40:42.529-07:002016-06-15T09:40:42.529-07:00If we redeem people, to whatever extent that is po...If we redeem people, to whatever extent that is possible, do we not redeem the culture as well? There is no distinction between the two. There is no culture without the people within it. If those people are redeemed, then so will be the culture. <br /><br />OR, if you prefer, if we're to make disciples, the culture cannot help but to reflect the increase in disciples and thus begin to turn toward a more Godly culture. <br /><br />You can't possibly do what you seem to be saying (to me) without engaging in the so-called culture war at the same time. So the question is what might one mean by references to winning or losing the culture war? Or rather, how does one go about winning, to what ever extent it can be won? Your words suggest a particular tactic and regardless of whether or not you intend to win the war, you will affect it nonetheless. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.com