tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post3675784563577719929..comments2024-03-28T07:18:33.667-07:00Comments on Winging It: Groups or Individuals?Stanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-21151089326632838122015-09-01T08:24:52.132-07:002015-09-01T08:24:52.132-07:00Again, an assersion without an answer. I said, &qu...Again, an assersion without an answer. I said, "Some people tell me it's about groups. I have these objections to that position." Your answer is "It's about groups" without responding to a single objection ... even when they are repeated.<br /><br />Here's the idea I'm being told. God planned a box. He didn't plan who would go into that box. He just planned that there would be a box. The people that occupy that box choose whether or not they will be there.<br /><br />Here's my problem with that. 1) Every reference in the text is to <i>individuals</i>, not groups. 2) Every objection only makes sense if Paul is talking about <i>individuals</i>, not groups. Your response? ...<br /><br />In the end, <i>you</i> are sovereign in your salvation. God enabled it; you activated it. In the end, <i>you</i> decide your eternal fate. God just planned a box. If <i>no one</i> occupied that box, God still succeeded because He built the box.<br /><br />"No," you tell me, "the reference at the beginning" ("It's not as though God's word has failed") "and the end" ("that Gentiles obtain righteousness") "is to groups." To which I say, "Yes, because when God sovereignly saves <i>individuals</i> to occupy the box He made, they become a group." That is, that is the <i>summation</i>, but it doesn't satisfy the details of the text. It simply sums up the final result.<br /><br />The answer to which I expect to see is, "No, it's about groups." And not much more.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-1326329310754500452015-08-31T19:43:04.901-07:002015-08-31T19:43:04.901-07:00This verse is the summary of the whole point! This...This verse is the summary of the whole point! This passage is talking about a group of people being opened up to the opportunity of being a part of the promise, when initially they were not. Gentiles who put their faith in Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, are incorporated into the New Covenant without having to become Jewish. Sure individuals in each group are part of this Covenant, but the summary point being made is about the two groups...Gentiles and Jews.Joshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-21996258427197802202015-08-31T16:05:13.651-07:002015-08-31T16:05:13.651-07:00Oh, and way too hang on to that one group referenc...Oh, and way too hang on to that one group reference. All the rest of the references indicate individuals, but this one calls out groups, so the whole thing must be about groups. It's the same reason I stopped being a pre-millenialist. Most of Scripture doesn't reference a literal thousand year reign (but it does a figurative thousand year) except for one verse, so let's interpret the rest of Scripture based on one verse.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-1223942483626843512015-08-31T16:01:34.154-07:002015-08-31T16:01:34.154-07:00By your statement alone, Josh, I would come to the...By your statement alone, Josh, I would come to the conclusion that all Gentiles are saved and all Jews are not, simply by the "groups" mentality. Now, if he meant individuals in those groups, then we're talking a whole different game.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-85205304590041129302015-08-31T13:23:41.512-07:002015-08-31T13:23:41.512-07:00Wow, that's really incredible! You offered a r...Wow, that's really incredible! You offered a reply without answering a single question. In the text at hand every reference is to an individual. Why, if the entire thing is about groups? Paul addresses two primary objections. How are these objections reasonable if it is about groups? Paul specifically says, "It does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy." If it is about groups, <i>what</i> does not depend on human will or effort?<br /><br />An answer "Because it's about groups, not individuals" doesn't answer the questions.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-77584737393272343132015-08-31T12:58:36.813-07:002015-08-31T12:58:36.813-07:00Paul's point of writing Romans 9 from verse 6:...Paul's point of writing Romans 9 from verse 6: It is not as though the word of God has failed.<br /><br />Paul's summary of his answer Romans 9:30-32--- 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles (Group) who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel (Group) who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. Joshnoreply@blogger.com