tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post3479664472567739805..comments2024-03-28T13:07:51.025-07:00Comments on Winging It: Economic DeistsStanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-25747829681800318212015-11-15T10:56:02.128-07:002015-11-15T10:56:02.128-07:00If the command is to do all things to the glory of...If the command is to do all things to the glory of God, then we should be weighing every action and choice accordingly. This wouldn't be a long, agonizing, debilitating process. It would be adding one additional step to every decision making process we already use. Anything less would be falling short of the glory of God.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-50441999161716480972015-11-15T06:06:20.756-07:002015-11-15T06:06:20.756-07:00You're using the word "purely". That...You're using the word "purely". That's where I run into problems. In your example of a vacation to recharge, if it was <i>purely</i> for me, it would be ... purely for me. If, on the other hand, I was recharging for the purpose of returning with vigor to the work God has for me, it is not <i>purely</i> for me, is it? It goes to intent. I'm not talking about a moment-by-moment micromanaging thing. What is the intent? Is my intent (in this food or this action or this purchase or this conversation or ...) to glorify God, or is it <i>purely</i> for me? The former can encompass lots of things and would be right. Those very same things done <i>purely</i> for me would not.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-32561198636198205632015-11-14T22:29:47.079-07:002015-11-14T22:29:47.079-07:00Then we do disagree, because the type of micromana...Then we do disagree, because the type of micromanaging of one's actions inhibits one's ability to act at all. I don't know that the command to do all to the glory of God requires that kind of attention to detail, even if we were capable. For most of us with more than a cursory interest in the faith to which we claim to adhere, I think it is apparent when we are about to do something that clearly does NOT result in glorifying God, or more precisely, does the opposite. Can we even focus on the task at hand by constantly weighing whether each action glorifies God, when our intent in generally to do so and not to do what displeases Him?<br /><br />If a purchase made purely for one's own pleasure is not inherently sinful, then can we say that pleasing ourselves...you know, enjoying the gifts that God has given us...automatically NOT glorifying Him (or whatever you wanna refer to as the opposite of glorifying)? Consider a purchase of travel. You buy plane tickets and rent a hotel room in order to enjoy the sun and beach of Maui to rest, relax and re-charge after 50 weeks of labor. That's definitely doing for the self. How is that so selfish as to conflict with the concept you're trying to get across?Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-64873768526077956742015-11-14T14:11:08.701-07:002015-11-14T14:11:08.701-07:00"If I buy for the pleasure the purchase bring..."<i>If I buy for the pleasure the purchase brings to myself, I don't see that as a problem.</i>"<br /><br />I suppose, then, that this would be a point on which our views differ. That something I buy might bring me pleasure is fine. I not only agree that we are not called to eliminate pleasure, but, rather that we are <i>made</i> for pleasure. That primary pleasure, however, is in Him ... something natural man is sorely missing. But to buy something purely for my pleasure would, <i>as I understand Scripture</i>, violate the command to do all to the glory of God. So I cannot explain how a purchase made purely for one's own pleasure could glorify God.<br /><br />I could see how, as a ministry to my wife, I would take her out for a dinner and a movie or concert or some such and that would be aiming at glorifying God. I don't think all pleasurable purchases fail to glorify God. I think, however, that anything we do that is done purely for ourselves would fail the test.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-27681915411812049402015-11-14T14:05:12.005-07:002015-11-14T14:05:12.005-07:00As I said, you're a better man than I. Better ...As I said, you're a better man than I. Better than any I've known. To never intend to do what you know is sin is very, very impressive.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-60717603434085983532015-11-14T13:56:01.776-07:002015-11-14T13:56:01.776-07:00As to the topic specifically, I would say the conc...As to the topic specifically, I would say the concept carries over. While, again, consciously considering whether our purchases glorify God or not, it is a stretch to say that NOT considering that equates with intending to do otherwise, even if the result is that we did in fact do otherwise. I would not argue that all we have is what God gave us, or allowed us to have or some other similar language. But you're post and subsequent comments suggest that we are to make no move without considering whether or not it glorifies God. I don't know that we are to have that level of regard whereby if we fail to do so there is a problem or it says something negative about our devotion and reverence for Him. <br /><br />I will say this, however: the more we <i>do</i> the more we <i>will be</i> glorifying Him in all we do. The more we do, the more we will develop and ingrain the habit. <br /><br />Still, if I buy for the pleasure the purchase brings to myself, I don't see that as a problem. I don't believe we are to deny ourselves pleasure entirely, but only that pleasure that displeases Him. But to flesh this out a bit more, perhaps you could speak on how a purchase made for one's own pleasure necessarily glorifies God. That is, if I buy an ice cream cone, or a game or concert tickets, how can doing so glorify God?Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-32668653795752746992015-11-14T13:44:13.772-07:002015-11-14T13:44:13.772-07:00Stan,
I don't think anyone intends to sin. W...Stan,<br /><br />I don't think anyone intends to sin. Who goes around thinking, "What can I do that is in clear violation of God's teachings regarding sinful behavior?" One might say, "I'm going to kick that dude's butt", but I doubt he's thinking in terms of the act being sinful. Thus, the intention is to kick the dude's butt, not to sin. Most people who sin must be convinced that their sinful act is indeed sinful. It's just that few people think in those terms, and fewer still weigh their actions according whether or not they believe it is sinful. Thus, to "intend to sin" is a conscious act and a specific one. It is a goal. <br /><br />The point is that while it is true that it would be better if we made a conscious judgement regarding whether or not our actions (or purchases---just to stay on topic) glorified God, I do not think that not doing so equates with intending to sin. It's simply going about one's business and intending no more than that. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-50636516069571782582015-11-14T05:28:53.122-07:002015-11-14T05:28:53.122-07:00Marshall Art, I AM a bit awed to meet someone who ...Marshall Art, I AM a bit awed to meet someone who does not sin intentionally. I've never known anyone like that before and I know I am not that person. I know we all sin unintentionally and I know that my aim is to always be the man God wants me to be, but there are times when I knowingly cross the line and I wasn't aware that there were those who could say otherwise.<br /><br />All of this is beside the point, however, since the topic was about being unaware that we are not spending our money for the glory of God.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-8066481636697713552015-11-14T03:13:13.099-07:002015-11-14T03:13:13.099-07:00@Stan---I think we're on the same page here. ...@Stan---I think we're on the same page here. I set out to please God, but I am not saying that I do it naturally. I'm prone to please myself first. But my intention is to please Him, regardless of how well I accomplish that task. So, yeah. I suffer from the same defect. <br /><br />@David---Nothing impossible here, except perfection in being the person God wants me to be. I don't consider succumbing to temptation the same as intending to sin. I don't consider reacting badly to life's challenges intending to sin. Maybe it is semantics, but then, I'm not willing to concede the point that I'm intending to sin. Not as a rule, anyway. I struggle with my shortcomings, but I intend that I should overcome them. I don't claim perfection...not by a really, really long shot. <br /><br />Now, if <i>YOU</i> intend to sin, maybe you need to work on that. I intend to please God. I often fail. Way too often, but my intention is always to please Him. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-7321805131211592892015-11-13T18:33:11.293-07:002015-11-13T18:33:11.293-07:00Marshall, sounds like you are deceiving yourself o...Marshall, sounds like you are deceiving yourself or playing word games. If you can honestly say you never intentionally displease God, you are an impossible man. I am always intentionally sinning. I don't think I ever just trip into a sin. Going along, intending to glorify God and, oops there's a sin. I certainly regret my sin, but I always will my sin. My intent certainly isn't to displease God, but I definitely intend to sin. Anything else is beyond my capacity.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-63346579856274440222015-11-13T15:35:26.832-07:002015-11-13T15:35:26.832-07:00I've found that I don't typically naturall...I've found that I don't typically <i>naturally</i> aim to glorify God. It looks like I need to do it intentionally because there appears to be a defect in me. I call it a sin nature. I don't know if anyone else has that problem.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-45566339989834243872015-11-13T15:25:16.217-07:002015-11-13T15:25:16.217-07:00Frankly, I never gave it much thought. Perhaps mo...Frankly, I never gave it much thought. Perhaps more precisely, now that I <i>am</i> thinking about it, I can say with some measure of certainty, that I intend that nothing I do <i>dis</i>pleases God, even if I'm not consciously out to please Him with every move I make. It is my intention to please Him, even if I naturally do not with consistency, and even if I am sometimes merely thinking of pleasing myself. I don't want the two to be mutually exclusive, though of course, that is likely more often the case than not. But again, it is my intention to please Him always, and my hope that I don't fail to do so with great regularity. <br /><br />Another great thought-provoking post! Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.com