tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post2947051574183208799..comments2024-03-27T19:03:47.301-07:00Comments on Winging It: Examining Sovereignty and Free WillStanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-78031695467749410192012-06-12T12:46:21.558-07:002012-06-12T12:46:21.558-07:00Me, too. I'm not sure what you mean by saying ...Me, too. I'm not sure what you mean by saying that His Sovereignty and His will are not the same thing.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-11956540563646667512012-06-12T12:09:50.162-07:002012-06-12T12:09:50.162-07:00And thus, I continue to struggle with determining ...And thus, I continue to struggle with determining if we are indeed on the same page or not.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-63709451783982984752012-06-12T06:15:58.266-07:002012-06-12T06:15:58.266-07:00No, Marshall, "Sovereign" does not requi...No, Marshall, "Sovereign" does not require ... "puppeteer". It does not require direct causation. (Indeed, as I've indicated, it <i>cannot</i> because God does allow choice and holds us responsible for those choices.)<br /><br />From the Westminster Confession of Faith on God's Eternal Decree, here's the statement that explains the concept (not because the Confession is authority, but because it explains it carefully): "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."<br /><br />Not the author of sin. No violence to the will of the creature. Whatever means God uses, it is not simple coercion of the will.<br /><br />But this isn't hard to see. In human terms if a captain of a ship delegates tasks to crew members and they carry them out as required, the captain was sovereign <i>and</i> they had free will. Sovereignty doesn't require "robots".Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-39112870002289234162012-06-12T04:42:24.241-07:002012-06-12T04:42:24.241-07:00Now that you mention the "puppets" thing...Now that you mention the "puppets" thing, I seem to vaguely remember that transition from puppets to robots.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-69170485227684150042012-06-12T02:03:00.739-07:002012-06-12T02:03:00.739-07:00God interjecting in man's free will is not in ...God interjecting in man's free will is not in conflict with what I am prone to feel about these types of passages. It, in fact, demonstrates my point, that He is always Sovereign and can do anything He wants regardless of His granting us free will. <br /><br />I also think part of the problem is in the articulation of the position you hold. When I think of "sovereign", I can't help but think of one having ultimate and absolute control. This control does is not diminished by delegating or allowing any level of autonomy, especially when the One doing the delegating is the Creator of all things. Sovereignty remains. I don't think saying He is Sovereign is the same as speaking about His Will.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-45098739584227013402012-06-12T00:11:20.300-07:002012-06-12T00:11:20.300-07:00In fact, if you are so inclined to believe, ALL of...In fact, if you are so inclined to believe, ALL of Scripture is proof that God directly acts through people. We know that all Scripture is God breathed. He put His words in men's heads to tell His story. If He wasn't willing to intervene, we wouldn't have such coherent, complete Scriptures. Of course, if you're one of those people that believe the Bible is just one among many inspirational books, then you've got a whole host of other problems.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-71716853499013682192012-06-11T19:54:19.418-07:002012-06-11T19:54:19.418-07:00It really is astounding how many times Scripture i...It really is astounding how many times <i>Scripture</i> is happy to explain how <i>God</i> moves people to ... do things.<br /><br />I <i>suspect</i> that the extreme resistance to "God interjects in Man's free will" is part of our natural rebellion, which, of course, is not a <i>good</i> thing.<br /><br />Oh, and your other question. What did they say before "God doesn't want robots"? It was "God doesn't want puppets."Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-81059177333656926542012-06-11T18:16:40.120-07:002012-06-11T18:16:40.120-07:00I asked more for you general readership, since I&#...I asked more for you general readership, since I'm already in agreement with God's Sovereignty being able to trump Free Will. It is interesting how we freely lay the blame, or praise, at the feet of God when it is something that is out of our hands, but then deny His authority in choice. Especially when we have such clear Scripture saying He interferes with the hearts of men. I mean, you left out the 2 big ones, Pharaoh and the High Priest in Jesus' time. Scripture clearly lays the claim that God moved their hearts in a certain direction.<br /><br />But, who needs clear Scripture teaching? We know better now. God is a gentleman after all... and all that other bologna. <br /><br />I do think more on the culpability of Man to balance with the Sovereignty of God would have been helpful. But then you can't please everyone :pDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-15156838153916234692012-06-11T14:19:11.105-07:002012-06-11T14:19:11.105-07:00David,
You asked in another comment about how God...David,<br /><br />You asked in another comment about how God uses evil for His purposes. Did this one help?Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.com