tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post2503642362822461831..comments2024-03-28T13:07:51.025-07:00Comments on Winging It: Paul's Moral RelativismStanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-48195159117374461282011-11-07T09:54:53.378-07:002011-11-07T09:54:53.378-07:00I just wanted to say that I'm still getting co...I just wanted to say that I'm still getting comments on this thread. I'm sure they're all good comments and worthwhile and all that, but I don't think that either side of the debate is seeing that the other side makes sense and I'm pretty sure that both sides think the other side isn't being fair or kind or something or other. Neither side thinks the other side is treating Scripture or the other side fairly.<br /><br />Okay. So, I think both sides have made their case and I'm pretty sure there won't be further movement on either case. If you believe you have something new to add, I'm willing to add it to this string of comments (and, of course, its subsequent retort). If not, maybe we can let this poor horse rest in peace.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-54574239381842111232011-11-06T21:00:15.437-07:002011-11-06T21:00:15.437-07:00"Nearly anytime someone makes a blanket state..."Nearly anytime someone makes a blanket statement like this, you can be sure it's a false statement. That's certainly true in this case."<br /><br />Dan T.<br /><br />"...IF NO ONE else can find one single solitary bit of real world evidence that there is something negative happening with the marriage experience (and NO ONE has done so, just to be clear),..."<br /><br />Dan T.<br /><br /><br />??????????Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-68708446550226369542011-11-06T20:57:33.897-07:002011-11-06T20:57:33.897-07:00"Pointing to infidelity and abuses of relatio..."Pointing to infidelity and abuses of relationships IS NOT evidence that marriage is bad, whether those infidelities and abuses are between straight folk or gay folk."<br /><br />Dan,<br /><br />I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't read my links carefully. Several of them were from folks who support the various gay agendas (including marriage). These are very clear that within the gay community there is minimal desire for marriage to be monogamous. Further, if you look at the statistics this seems to be the case. <br /><br />I can only assume that you would consider monogamy to be a critical component of marriage.<br /><br />Finally, you can extrapolate all you want, it still doesn't rise to the level of proof, or evidence.<br /><br />You can make your pronouncements, "IF NO ONE else can find one single solitary bit of real world evidence that there is something negative happening with the marriage experience (and NO ONE has done so, just to be clear),...", yet the very nature of such a blanket pronouncement renders it meaningless in any real sense.<br /><br />"However, when you speak of what God blesses some Biblical evidence would be a good place to start."<br /><br />You say the following.<br /><br />"Yes, sure, and I've done that multiple times in multiple ways."<br /><br />then you follow with.<br /><br />"GOD HAS NOT OFFERED us God's opinion of marriage between gay folk."<br /><br />So which is it either you have evidence that God blesses gay marriage, or God hasn't offered an opinion, it seems you should probably choose one or the other.<br /><br />Finally, (Stan correct me if I'm wrong) the issue has never been about "gay marriage", it's that the underlying homosexual behavior is sinful. Simply adding marriage to a sinful behavior doesn't mitigate the sin.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-64305092706388847972011-11-06T20:46:45.214-07:002011-11-06T20:46:45.214-07:00Been away for the weekend. So glad to see this go...Been away for the weekend. So glad to see this goofiness goes on so that I can jump in.<br /><br />Skimming somewhat over some comments and reading more deeply others, one thing that is clearly misunderstood is here:<br /><br /><i>"Pointing to infidelity and abuses of relationships IS NOT evidence that marriage is bad..."</i><br /><br />Didn't seem to me that Craig was doing this. I took his links to support his contention that you, Dan, can't know just how wonderful the "marriages" of your homosexual friends truly are. The point was that not all is as it appears to be and though your friends might put on a good front, you can't possibly know just how solid their union is unless you are living with them 24/7. Craig can correct me if I'm mistaken.<br /><br />But what is even more true is that should we concede that all is peaches and cream between subjects of each union you have in mind, when you use the following...<br /><br /><i>"On the other hand, the Bible does tell us that whatsoever things are good, are true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things... and WHY think on these things? Because they are objectively good."</i><br /><br />You must first keep in mind that the Bible isn't talking about what YOU regard as good or noble or true, but what IS according to He that determines such things. If the behavior is regarded as worthy of death by Him, there can be no doubt that anything that is based upon that behavior cannot be regarded as good, noble or true. It can only be regarded as equally sinful. THAT is a logical reasoning based on what the Bible DOES say. And just to reiterate, it does not speak to any particular context in which the behavior takes place, such as pagan ritual. <br /><br />Thus, to pretend that these friends of yours are examples of people living a Godly life, growing in the faith when they clearly live in sin, well, that's exactly the type of moral relativism the reeks the worst. You have to first establish that the behavior that defines their relationship is not sinful. Even if they are living in a platonic manner, they are still acting on the sinful compulsion of their dysfunction by joining together in the manner of a man and woman. <br /><br />We could also throw in Deut 22:5 for further support against same-sex unions since marriage, as has been said ad nauseum, is always regarded in Scripture as between a man and a woman. For two of the same gender to "marry", one, if not both, is assuming the sex opposite their own in order to join with their partner. That is, a normal man pairs up with a woman. If a man pairs with a man, that man is acting like a female (as is the other). Deut 22:5, though dealing with dress codes, is thought traditionally to be a warning against confusing the God-created differences between gender. There's nothing good, true or noble about that. One must disregard every admonition against same sex practice in the Bible, every reference to marriage as being between a man and a woman, and in addition, throw in some wild assertions based on incredibly loose interpretations of unrelated verses in order to hold Dan's position. <br /><br />That's really not moral relativism at all. That's moral redefinition.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-85492716426966932212011-11-06T20:21:21.064-07:002011-11-06T20:21:21.064-07:00Craig, here's not really the place to talk abo...Craig, here's not really the place to talk about me, as flattering as it is that you all tend to try to do exactly that.<br /><br />Beyond that, I'd hope that you could agree that if someone is being hypocritical and pharisaical, that calling that sort of verbal vomit "verbal vomit" is an appropriate thing to do.<br /><br />You don't have a problem with Jesus or the prophets using harsh words with those who act with arrogance, especially those who have done so repeatedly.<br /><br />Speaking of moral relativism...Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-75933395490703678562011-11-06T17:49:38.981-07:002011-11-06T17:49:38.981-07:00Let's see, real world "evidence" sta...Let's see, real world "evidence" states that the universe and everything in it doesn't need to be created. It can all happen by chance. Real world "evidence" shows that true power comes from money. In another post Stan has pointed out that real world "evidence" says that women are most happy making $120k, without young children, and the list goes on. And yet Scripture opposes this "evidence". Just pointing out that you can't always trust real world "evidence". I call your "evidence" bunk. If you're going to depend on the world to inform you of right and wrong, just let go of the Bible since its clear you don't actually care what it says. Your refutations of the Scriptures presented as anti-"gay marriage" is that they don't count. They weren't written to us, so they don't count. So, based on your "logic", we should throw out the Old Testament, since it was only written to the Jews and has no bearing on us today. But based on that "logic" you should throw out most of the New Testament since most of it was written to specific churches, and even those not addressed to specific churches were addressed to a specific time and culture, so throw out the New Testament. That is your argument, that it was a different time and culture, so those things God considered abominations don't count in our time. And the fact that the Holy Spirit has failed to do His job in some 4000+ years is lost on you, since the Jews and the Church have agreed that homosexuality is a sin, but now the Holy Spirit has changed His mind. What was once a sin is no longer a sin. I wonder what other sins are no longer sins. All you want is the loving, cuddly, sweet Lord of the New Testament, but forget that the Old Testament shows us that He is righteous, wrathful, and harsh. My Bible shows that He is both, where yours only shows the one. Now how can you claim we worship the same God, when yours loves everyone equally, and mine hates sin and punishes sinners?Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-46442198217411052782011-11-05T16:32:15.676-07:002011-11-05T16:32:15.676-07:00Craig went on...
There is no reasonable way that ...Craig went on...<br /><br /><i>There is no reasonable way that you can extrapolate anything from 10 families that you claim to personally know.</i><br /><br />In fact, I can extrapolate that IF it's good for these families and IF NO ONE else can find one single solitary bit of real world evidence that there is something negative happening with the marriage experience (and NO ONE has done so, just to be clear), then it is reasonable to say, "Seeing that marriage has been a beautiful wonderful holy thing for these families and seeing no rational evidence that there is anything wrong with it, WHY would anyone oppose faithful, loving, committed relationships?"<br /><br />That is an entirely reasonable extrapolation. You'd have to come up with something like ACTUAL evidence to the contrary to say that is an invalid extrapolation. You have NOT done so.<br /><br />And read carefully and understand this rational point:<br /><br />Pointing to infidelity and abuses of relationships IS NOT evidence that marriage is bad, whether those infidelities and abuses are between straight folk or gay folk. That is just a nonsensical grasping at straws. I'm sure you would agree that if someone said "You know, a large percentage of men in marriages cheat and many married folk are unhappy, therefore, marriage between straight folk is bad," that there conclusion is a faulty one.<br /><br />Your conclusions are just plain faulty, insofar as actual real world evidence goes.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-82848971351807549172011-11-05T16:26:00.505-07:002011-11-05T16:26:00.505-07:00I was going to let this go, as it's off topic,...I was going to let this go, as it's off topic, but I'll give this another shot and Stan can decide whether or not he wants me to address Craig's vast misunderstandings:<br /><br />Craig...<br /><br /><i>However, when you speak of what God blesses some Biblical evidence would be a good place to start.</i><br /><br />Yes, sure, and I've done that multiple times in multiple ways. Likewise, when you speak of something that God condemns, some biblical evidence would be a good place to start.<br /><br />Unfortunately for both of us, GOD HAS NOT OFFERED us God's opinion of marriage between gay folk. YES, God HAS talked about marriage between straight folk, but endorsing various notions about marriage in general and referring to straight folk and marriage IS NOT A CONDEMNATION of marriage between gay folk.<br /><br />CAN WE NOT AGREE ON THIS VERY BASIC ENGLISH LANGUAGE, LOGICAL ASSUMPTION? NOT MENTIONING SOMETHING IS WRONG IS NOT THE SAME AS SAYING THAT THING IS WRONG!<br /><br />Very basic logic stuff here, my brother.<br /><br />And so, since there is no direct message from God on this topic (and that is just a plain fact and if you can't acknowledge that, then you are totally blinded by your cultural prejudices), we both look to basic principles found in the Bible to glean some hints as to what is right.<br /><br />You find some passages that make you think God would not support loving, committed relationships between gay folk. I find passages that make me think it OBVIOUS that God would support it.<br /><br />But neither of us can prove that we're right and neither of us can speak for God on the point.<br /><br />Those are just the facts of the situation, my brother.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-85687585165505608492011-11-04T15:07:26.731-07:002011-11-04T15:07:26.731-07:00"I engage in these conversations in an effort..."I engage in these conversations in an effort by God's grace through the leadership of the Holy Spirit to learn how and improve on doing this study the correct way and to learn from my mistakes to move away from doing it the incorrect way."<br /><br />Dan Trabue<br /><br /><br />“Each time that someone suggests "well, I (hoity toity, wonderful ME) rely upon the Holy Spirit, NOT my reason, while YOU merely rely upon your flawed reason..." each time someone suggests that sort of verbal vomit, they are exposing their arrogance and hypocrisy and all-around plain goofiness, not to mention a bit of diabolical divisiveness. Stop it.”<br /><br />Dan Trabue<br /><br /><br />So Dan, is that second quote an example of God's grace or the leadership of the Holy Spirit?<br /><br /><br />Stan,<br /><br />If this crosses the line don't let it past moderation. However, both are direct quotes from Dan.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-168954831073418362011-11-04T15:04:19.974-07:002011-11-04T15:04:19.974-07:00"Not all evidence need be biblical."
Di..."Not all evidence need be biblical."<br /><br />Didn't say all evidence needed to be Biblical. However, when you speak of what God blesses some Biblical evidence would be a good place to start.<br /><br />"We know that it is wrong to harm innocent folk, right?"<br /><br />It would help if you responded to what I actually said. This is totally unrelated to anything else in this thread.<br /><br />"? Says who?"<br /><br />?Really? <br /><br />"...this all seems to me to be evidence that, for these families..."<br /><br />Thank you for making part of my point. There is no reasonable way that you can extrapolate anything from 10 families that you claim to personally know. Had you limited your original statement in this way, there would be no confusion.<br /><br />Since I have never made any claims about these families, I am forced to conclude that you are talking to someone else. I'll refrain from further response to this silliness.<br /><br />I'm skipping now, since your response in no way relates to what I said.<br /><br />"Nor does yours. So?"<br /><br />I've never claimed that God blesses 'gay marriage", you have.<br /><br />"You have NO biblical evidence that God opposes gay marriage"<br /><br />As has been pointed out ad nauseum, in EVERY case where the Bible refers to marriage it is heterosexual. In every case where the Bible refers to homosexuality it is in a negative context.<br /><br />Further, you have no biblical evidence that God blesses, supports, condones, or is even neutral to "gay marriage". So, feel free to argue from silence. <br /><br />"...BUT THAT IS EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF MARRAIGE IDEALS, NOT IN OPPOSITION TO THEM!"<br /><br />Yes, as long as you don't redefine marriage to include multiple sexual partners as noted in the articles I linked to.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-70315554474952634442011-11-04T07:44:38.006-07:002011-11-04T07:44:38.006-07:00David...
The Bible is an unmoving standard, but w...David...<br /><br /><i>The Bible is an unmoving standard, but we can't know what that standard is. So, if there is a standard, but we can't know it, why bother?</i> <br /><br />1. I said, "The problem is, it seems to me, is that no such "unmoving standard" exists or ever did exist."<br /><br />2. The Bible IS profitable for teaching, correction, etc.<br /><br />3. Thus, for that reason, I believe in good, solid Bible study, seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance prayerfully.<br /><br />4. Thus, for THAT reason, I am opposed to poor, weak Bible study - study that says, "The Bible says X and those who disagree, disagree with God, not with me..."<br /><br />5. Why bother with Bible study? Because we are called to do it, because all Scripture IS useful for teaching, rebuke, correction and training.<br /><br />I BELIEVE in good, solid bible study. But the Bible is not a magic book, it doesn't tell us perfect answers that we have no need to question. Rather, it is text that we have agreed is inspired and useful for teaching, but we must use our God-given reasoning to get to its meaning.<br /><br />Otherwise, we're not engaged in Bible study, we're engaged in pablum recitation and regurgitation.<br /><br />Does that answer your question, David? <br /><br />David...<br /><br /><i>Dan, you claim we shouldn't quarrel over opinions, yet claim that ALL interpretations are opinions, and yet you say its alright to "lovingly debate" about these things. But why? If we can't ever know the Truth, why bother debating it?</i><br /><br />If you were asking, why study? I'd think that is obvious.<br /><br />We are called to study (again, not brainless memorization, but STUDY, using our God-given reasoning)<br /><br />But why debate? Well, I'm not usually involved in too much debate, myself. Rather, I'm presenting my position for the prayerful consideration of other brothers and sisters in Christ, as well as those not in the church. I don't consider that debate, but study and studying with my fellow Christians, especially those with whom I disagree on some points, that I think is a good thing. Done correctly, I'm convinced it has the ability to bring folk together and, if not agree on points, celebrate God's Lordship even in our lack of agreement.<br /><br />Done incorrectly, of course, it can be rather snippy and contentious.<br /><br />I engage in these conversations in an effort by God's grace through the leadership of the Holy Spirit to learn how and improve on doing this study the correct way and to learn from my mistakes to move away from doing it the incorrect way.<br /><br />That seems to me to be a worthwhile thing. What do you think?Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-45133591191541574192011-11-04T07:31:47.586-07:002011-11-04T07:31:47.586-07:00Craig...
5. You can't possibly know that ever...Craig...<br /><br /><i>5. You can't possibly know that every single (or even a preponderance) "marriage" or these "happily married" gay folk are actually healthy, happy, committed, or in any way positive. This might surprise you but many married folk appear to happily married, when in fact they are not.</i><br /><br />No, I do NOT know that every single marriage (gay or straight folk) is happy, healthy, committed and/or positive. In fact, I can GUARANTEE you that a good number of marriages (gay AND straight) are, at least at times, less than happy, aren't committed and aren't positive.<br /><br />But that does not mean that marriage itself is a bad thing, gay or straight. In fact, I'm convinced that for a good many folk, marriage IS a good ideal, even if living it out is not always easy. That some marriages are less than totally happy is, in no way, a condemnation of marriage nor does it mean that we should tell folk to get married. Can we agree on that?<br /><br />Craig...<br /><br /><i>6. You do realize that your "observation" of some unquantified and undocumented "happily married" gay folk does not actually constitute evidence in any meaningful sense of the word.</i><br /><br />Of course, JUST AS my observation of some "happily married" straight folk does not constitute evidence that marriage is good for all straight folk.<br /><br />So?<br /><br />Craig...<br /><br /><i>7. Your "evidence" does not support the conclusion that God "blesses" "gay marriage".</i><br /><br />Nor does yours. So?<br /><br />Craig...<br /><br /><i>That's probably enough for now.</i><br /><br />Enough of what?<br /><br />The point remains: You have NO biblical evidence that God opposes gay marriage. None. Nada. Zip. You have YOUR HUNCHES that the Bible probably implies that, and you're welcome to your hunches. I disagree with them. In seeking God's will and the leadership of the Holy Spirit, is has been MY conclusion that marriage is a good thing for folk, gay or straight.<br /><br />I base that on the potential for goodness, purity, holiness, respect and other admirable, Godly traits that exists in the institution of marriage.<br /><br />Further, you have NO hard real world evidence that marriage is a bad thing in any cases, at least that is my guess. I have not seen you present any.<br /><br />Yes, of course, you can point to studies that show the negative results that come from promiscuity or a lack of monogamy, BUT THAT IS EVIDENCE <b>IN SUPPORT OF MARRAIGE IDEALS</b>, NOT IN OPPOSITION TO THEM! <br /><br />And that is probably enough for now.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-60877584366015059872011-11-04T07:31:25.861-07:002011-11-04T07:31:25.861-07:00Craig...
There are so many problems here I don...Craig...<br /><br /><i>There are so many problems here I don't know where to start.<br /><br /> 1. Your "evidence" is not Biblical.</i><br /><br />Not all evidence need be biblical. We know that it is wrong to harm innocent folk, right?<br /><br />And if we see evidence that Company A is dumping waste in Mr Smith's backyard and he and his children all die, that is evidence of harm to innocent people and thus, we can know that this was wrong.<br /><br />Agreed?<br /><br /><i>2. Your evidence is not objective, or hard evidence.</i><br /><br />? Says who?<br /><br /><i>3. You can't possibly be personally acquainted with enough "married" gay folk to even begin to draw such a sweeping unfounded conclusion.</i><br /><br />If I have seen with my own eyes, ten families who are happily married and having a great, Godly life, raising healthy children together, being productive members of a community together, growing together in faith at their church, supporting one another, loving one another, being together in good times and bad, this all seems to me to be evidence that, for these families, things are working together for the good in their marriage, for at least these families.<br /><br />Do you have ANY evidence whatsoever to contradict what is obviously true in these cases? ANYTHING AT ALL?<br /><br />Seeing as how you don't know these families, the answer is obviously, NO, YOU DO NOT HAVE EVEN ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE to the contrary - evidence that this is not a good, healthy thing for these families.<br /><br />Do you feel qualified, then, to comment on their status?<br /><br />If so, based on what?<br /><br />Craig...<br /><br /><i>4. You can't possibly know to any degree of objective certainty that God blesses, has blessed, or will bless, any of these happily "married" gay folk.</i><br /><br />No, God has not told me this so I can't "know" that God blesses them. On the other hand, the Bible does tell us that whatsoever things are good, are true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things... and WHY think on these things? Because they are objectively good. It's a tautology, if something is good, then it is good.<br /><br />Do you have ANY SINGLE BIT of hard evidence that my married gay friends who have found happiness, contentment, support, love, respect, companionship and peace of mind in their relationship together, that God does NOT bless this arrangement?<br /><br />The answer is, "No," you don't. So?<br /><br />Cont'd...Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-9492134410992225072011-11-04T01:36:50.554-07:002011-11-04T01:36:50.554-07:00Wow, that really didn't make any sense. The Bi...Wow, that really didn't make any sense. The Bible is an unmoving standard, but we can't know what that standard is. So, if there is a standard, but we can't know it, why bother? This is exactly what Stan was talking about in this post. Dan, you claim we shouldn't quarrel over opinions, yet claim that ALL interpretations are opinions, and yet you say its alright to "lovingly debate" about these things. But why? If we can't ever know the Truth, why bother debating it? If the Truth is A for me, and Truth is B for you, where A CANNOT equal or be close to B, why bother? Let everyone believe as they please and leave it be. You give the impression that we can have debates that come to logical, rational, prayerful conclusions, but that is an illogical idea if there is no standard to compare to. If logic is merely what anyone says it to be, how can anyone deny that claim? You constantly argue with Stan and his commentors like you know the Truth (have a hunch). If all hunches are unprovable, stop arguing since it is a waste of effort.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443810898475961105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-17866025280345548172011-11-03T15:13:19.273-07:002011-11-03T15:13:19.273-07:00Dan,
It would seem that there might be some actua...Dan,<br /><br />It would seem that there might be some actual evidence that just might not support your opinion, at least as you seem to be willing to extrapolate that the folk you know are representative of the gay community at large.<br /><br /><br /><br />http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02<br /><br />http://eyeonapologetics.com/blog/2010/08/07/studies-show-that-less-than-3-of-homosexuals-are-truly-monogamous/<br /><br />http://eyeonapologetics.com/blog/2010/08/07/studies-show-that-less-than-3-of-homosexuals-are-truly-monogamous/<br /><br />http://www.gaypatriot.net/2009/03/16/is-monogamy-essential-to-marital-bliss/<br /><br />http://www.homorazzi.com/article/open-relationship-gay-study-statistics-monogamy-threesome-trust-sex/<br /><br />http://www.homorazzi.com/article/open-relationship-gay-study-statistics-monogamy-threesome-trust-sex/Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-4248845728620785982011-11-03T14:59:57.454-07:002011-11-03T14:59:57.454-07:00"Whereas I freely acknowledge that the Bible ..."Whereas I freely acknowledge that the Bible does not speak of marriage between gay folk,..."<br /><br />So, your argument from silence is compelling, but...<br /><br /><br />"... but I have plenty of evidence in the real world that such marriages are good, thus NOT an argument from silence when we look at actual evidence."<br /><br />There are so many problems here I don't know where to start.<br /><br />1. Your "evidence" is not Biblical.<br />2. Your evidence is not objective, or hard evidence.<br />3. You can't possibly be personally acquainted with enough "married" gay folk to even begin to draw such a sweeping unfounded conclusion.<br />4. You can't possibly know to any degree of objective certainty that God blesses, has blessed, or will bless, any of these happily "married" gay folk.<br />5. You can't possibly know that every single (or even a preponderance) "marriage" or these "happily married" gay folk are actually healthy, happy, committed, or in any way positive. This might surprise you but many married folk appear to happily married, when in fact they are not.<br />6. You do realize that your "observation" of some unquantified and undocumented "happily married" gay folk does not actually constitute evidence in any meaningful sense of the word.<br />7. Your "evidence" does not support the conclusion that God "blesses" "gay marriage".<br /><br />That's probably enough for now.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-88182244383355910472011-11-03T14:02:42.603-07:002011-11-03T14:02:42.603-07:00Earlier, Jeremy made a point that is right on targ...Earlier, Jeremy made a point that is right on target with the actual topic here...<br /><br /><i>Ultimately there has to be an unmoving standard that is eternally settled (perfect principles as I term them in the blog post)</i><br /><br />The problem is, it seems to me, is that no such "unmoving standard" exists or ever did exist.<br /><br />Even if you believe, as I do, that the books of our Bible are as scripture and, as such, are profitable for teaching, rebuke, correction, etc, you still will ALWAYS be stuck on the "moving standard" of our opinion.<br /><br />Yes, yes, yes, we can agree that we ought to love our neighbor. the Bible clearly says that and we all can agree that this is God's will for us. BUT, what does that mean? What are the applications of that? Can we KILL our neighbors whom we are commanded to love? The Just War Crowd would say yes. The Just Peace Crowd would say no. <br /><br />Can we kill the children of our enemies, whom we are commanded to love? Again, there is disagreement.<br /><br />There is disagreement because EVEN IF each word in the 66 books of the Bible were absolutely, objectively True (and I don't think we can reasonably make that claim carte blanche), we STILL have the problem of, "But what does it MEAN to say, 'Thou shalt not cut the hair on the side of your heads..."? what does it MEAN when the OT says, kill men who lay with men? In what context is "men laying with men" wrong? What does it MEAN when the Bible says, "men who rape women must marry their victim..."?<br /><br />All these questions and a million more can and do come up as we read the Bible and to ANSWER these questions, WE MUST USE OUR GOD-GIVEN REASONING, and as soon as we do that, we move away from an "unmoving standard" and to a subjective standard.<br /><br />It is for this reason that the church has argued all these years over a million topics.<br /><br />Yes, the Bible IS a great source for teaching and correction, but the Bible does not magically cure us of our fallibility. Yes, God does promise to guide us, lead us, teach us by God's Holy Spirit, but that does not magically cure us of our fallibility. We remain and WILL remain fallible because we are human. Thus, as long as we must use our fallible reasoning to sort out what is and isn't God's will, I don't see how we can have an "unmoving standard."<br /><br />Do you?<br /><br />The problem, of course, is not the Bible's fault - it IS a mostly unmoving standard - but our own fallibility once we apply our prayerful reasoning led by the Holy Spirit in rightly understanding the standard.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-88712724395064004442011-11-03T10:49:15.121-07:002011-11-03T10:49:15.121-07:00Craig...
So it is your opinion that God blesses &...Craig...<br /><br /><i>So it is your opinion that God blesses "gay marriage", but you have no Biblical support for that opinion.</i><br /><br />Yes, that is my opinion. You, on the other hand, have the opinion that God does NOT bless marriages between gay folk, and you hold THAT position with nothing from the Bible to support that claim.<br /><br />Sounds like an argument from silence, to me.<br /><br />Fellas, pointing to support for marriage between a man and a woman in the bible IS support for a marriage between a man and a woman. But it is NOT support for the suggestion that loving, committed, healthy marriage relationships are anything but good.<br /><br />And, in fact, you have no evidence of any sort (biblical or otherwise) for that suggestion. An argument from silence in the Bible AND an argument from silence in the real world.<br /><br />Whereas I freely acknowledge that the Bible does not speak of marriage between gay folk, but I have plenty of evidence in the real world that such marriages are good, thus NOT an argument from silence when we look at actual evidence.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-47548883395735737212011-11-03T09:53:39.360-07:002011-11-03T09:53:39.360-07:00SF...
you continue to twist Scripture for your ow...SF...<br /><br /><i>you continue to twist Scripture for your own liking</i><br /><br />Don't make unsubstantiated (and, in this case, FALSE) claims, my dear brother. SUPPORT them.<br /><br />I'm telling you that this comment is a false witness (the bible condemns that clearly, you know?). I KNOW it is a false witness, because we're talking about me and I personally know I have not twisted scripture and certainly not to my own liking. <br /><br />As I have pointed out in the past: In the case that you all fixate on so much (homosexuality), my "liking" was the same as yours: I was opposed to the normalization of homosexuality and the notion of gay folk marrying. That WAS my "liking." It was prayerful Bible study and seeking God's will that led me AWAY from "my liking," so you can see in that instance, that this IS a false witness.<br /><br />If you have ANY support for such a claim, support it. If not, don't make false and unsubstantiated claims, my brother. It's bad for you and it's bad for the body of Christ.<br /><br />For my part, I count it all joy.<br /><br />Peace.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-80788894833370213892011-11-03T09:43:59.188-07:002011-11-03T09:43:59.188-07:00Dan,
Thank you for clarifying. So it is your opi...Dan,<br /><br />Thank you for clarifying. So it is your opinion that God blesses "gay marriage", but you have no Biblical support for that opinion.<br /><br />Sounds like an arguement from silence to me.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-49579454828970700242011-11-03T09:07:06.637-07:002011-11-03T09:07:06.637-07:00Jeremy, that has also been my issue and contention...Jeremy, that has also been my issue and contention. I suppose, in a world populated solely by people, it makes sense that everything is opinion and truth can't, in an ultimate sense, be known, at least on some matters. And I suppose that the alternative -- that the Holy Spirit leads His own into the truth -- sounds arrogant. But we don't live in a world populated solely by humans. There <i>is</i> a God. And, while it may <i>sound</i> arrogant to say that the Holy Spirit leads His own into the truth, since <i>He</i> makes the claim, true arrogance would be to deny it. And true humility would require that we accept it. The problem comes when one side says, "So, <i>we</i> have the truth revealed by the Holy Spirit" and the other side says, "Prove it!" and we're back into a world populated by sinful humans. The fact that it can't be "proven" (proof is evidence or argument sufficient to establish fact, a premise that assumes that such evidence or argument is accepted) doesn't make it <i>false</i>.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-71274040712124142332011-11-03T08:02:34.832-07:002011-11-03T08:02:34.832-07:00Dan you seem to be using a new tagline "Just ...Dan you seem to be using a new tagline "Just don't try to legislate your religious biases", and becoming more militant about this issue. Definitely seeing an agenda here.<br /><br />I'm sorry but I will not apologize for the "heretic" comments - although I didn't originate them; I only pointed them out (though I do agree). <br /><br />I'm sorry, but you continue to twist Scripture for your own liking, and I honestly feel for you. I don't take this lightly... but you seem so blinded by such falsehoods... and I'm afraid for you. I don't mean disrespect to you. But you are trying to make a mockery of the God I love, and I can't sit idly by and watch this. I think pointing out your error is the best thing that can happen for you...you just don't seem to get it...Like Marshall said, God isn't granting you the wisdom you seek.starflyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00574941549816187189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-58057274595536595752011-11-03T08:02:16.319-07:002011-11-03T08:02:16.319-07:00Stan,
I've thought about this a lot again in ...Stan,<br /><br />I've thought about this a lot again in the last few days and spent an hour or so last night getting everything arranged on my blog in a full post that answers two specific questions asked in a separate comment thread. Please see that for the extended version, but in a nutshell for me it comes down to the motivation of the one asking about "essentials" and "non-essentials". Ultimately there has to be an unmoving standard that is eternally settled (perfect principles as I term them in the blog post). Otherwise all is opinion. This is the purely logical problem I think many have with Dan T.'s line of argumentation. To say that the words in the Bible are final, but ANY interpretation is a hunch or opinion requires him to make a declaration that is not opinion (namely that the interpretations are all our individual opinions). But what unmoving standard requires that declaration to be anything more than opinion. Such is the inescapable loop of relativism and opinion. At some point there has to be something that transcends human opinion on which to base a standard true for all people. Therefore we must establish as a first principle that what is sacred and transcendent are the perfect principles of the Word of God. We then use our reason and wisdom that comes from the Holy Spirit to challenge one another to more closely align with those perfect principles as we are being conformed to the likeness of Christ.Jeremy D. Troxlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13795574301560174212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-77361274789042459652011-11-03T07:28:42.883-07:002011-11-03T07:28:42.883-07:00Craig...
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I s...Craig...<br /><br /><i>Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall Dan suggesting on earlier threads that God "blessed" "gay marriage", and that "gay marriage" was a good thing. I am a bit confused how the statement above contrasts with what appears to be a different perspective in earlier conversations.</i><br /><br />Again, to clarify: <br /><br /><b>THE BIBLE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT GAY MARRIAGE. IN THE BIBLE, GOD SAYS NOTHING ABOUT GAY FOLK MARRYING, NEITHER PRAISING IT, NOR CONDEMNING IT. THE TOPIC OF MARRIAGE BETWEEN GAY FOLK IS NOT SPOKEN OF IN THE BIBLE.</b><br /><br />That is just a statement of facts. It is not my opinion, it's just reality.<br /><br />Now, I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE that marriage is a blessed (bring pleasure, contentment, good fortune, held in reverence, good, holy, set apart for a special purpose) thing. I HAPPEN TO HAVE THE HUNCH that God blesses and approves of that which is Good. But that is my opinion that I have derived based upon observation of the world and truths taught in the Bible, which (need I remind you), does NOT tell us what God thinks of marriage between gay folk.<br /><br />Does that help?<br /><br />Marshall, you are welcome to whatever hunches you wish to hold about this topic. I find your case much less than moral, Godly, logical or biblical, but you are welcome to your hunches. Just don't try to legislate your religious biases and expect folk to go along with them.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30006406.post-58143240997413700032011-11-03T04:48:06.889-07:002011-11-03T04:48:06.889-07:00"God says nothing about gay marriage, thus it..."God says nothing about gay marriage, thus it must be good." <br /><br />Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall Dan suggesting on earlier threads that God "blessed" "gay marriage", and that "gay marriage" was a good thing. I am a bit confused how the statement above contrasts with what appears to be a different perspective in earlier conversations.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.com